Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

english.elpais.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 94 posts

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#51

Post by Avicebron »

fzeroracer wrote: post #38
Silverback_VII wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Japan is strongly monocultural which is used both by its government and its corporate culture to exploit the population so I'm not sure your argument passes the smell test.

Until the ~90s, Japan had a very strong social agreement between the corporations and the people and the government which basically guaranteed well paying jobs for life at the trade-off of the corporate culture. The dismantling of that has led to more recent problems in Japan, it was a highly successful system between the 60s-80s

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#52

Post by lapcat »

baidifnaoxi wrote: post #47
lapcat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! "This movement—known as “the four no’s”—began in 2019. It has since spread..." > Beware articles about problems or trends that neglect to quantify anything. "Despite the solid academic credentials of women in South Korea, according to a study by Statista, the gender pay gap is scandalous: men earn 30% more than women. This makes the country, according to the K…

Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors. There probably is a pay gap but it’s incredibly hard to quantify and many studies choose to look only at $$ versus benefits (schedule flexibility, maternity leave, part time, etc) US studies for example don’t always consider that women overindex in less technical careers (teaching, humanities, etc), often those that have lower salaries bu…

> Pay gap studies are notorious for being overly ignorant of confounding factors.

How about these factors?

"Added to this is a poor work-life balance in South Korea, as well as a disparity in the distribution of domestic tasks. Women often assume the responsibility of raising children, pushing them to have to choose between working or being mothers. In South Korea, the work week is 52-hours-long."

"Single mothers are stigmatized, doctors refuse to give IVF to women without a male partner—even though it’s not illegal—and out-of-wedlock births represent only 2% of the total, compared to the average of 41% for women in the OECD. Marriage and childbirth are closely intertwined; women are pressured to sacrifice their career once they have a child or get married."

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#53

Post by 55555 »

lapcat wrote: post #32
55555 wrote: post #15

In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! This is 0.016% of the women in South Korea! I'm going to assume (because I think it's very likely) that a large number of these were already not having much sex ("incels") nor planning on getting married. I'm also going to assume that many of these women who now claim they are remaining celibate are actually having sex anyway, as abstaining from sex is difficult…

> In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! "This movement—known as “the four no’s”—began in 2019. It has since spread..." > Beware articles about problems or trends that neglect to quantify anything. "Despite the solid academic credentials of women in South Korea, according to a study by Statista, the gender pay gap is scandalous: men earn 30% more than women. This makes the country, according to the K…

I read the article. A sibling commenter has already mentioned the big issue with pay gap studies. I will only add that you can find studies showing domestic abuse prevalence at anywhere from 0% to 100% depending on what they define as abuse and how the survey is done. The article didn't really provide enough context for me to take the statistic seriously, as I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives. (The rate of abuse from women towards men would also be relevant for context.)

The first google snippet for "domestic violence south korea" says "According to the results of a 2021 study on violence against women, which the Korean Women's Development Institute conducted via a research contract with the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family, out of 7,000 adult women surveyed, 16.1% or 1,124 women had experienced physical, sexual, emotional, or financial violence"

You can't simplify something like this down to a simple number and then scream bloody murder.

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#54

Post by belltaco »

mpweiher wrote: post #42
Onewildgamer wrote: post #4

I don't know the situation of South Korea to comment on this topic. But, with the corporate industries talking too much about transparency it seems no one has come to identifying the cause of wage gap. Why not make the salary transparent across the board and the employee performance in public (internal to company) as well? People or Management say it is complicated, but is it really? This company Buffer appeared in H…

> it seems no one has come to identifying the cause of wage gap. That's because there is no discernible wage gap. There is an earnings differential that has been pretty much fully explained. For example here, fairly comprehensively: "both men and women unconsciously make trade-offs that affect how much they earn. Farrell clearly defines the 25 different workplace choices that affect women's and men's incomes -- inclu…

Is that true in places like South Korea as well or only in the west?

Was there a real wage gap in the US, say, a hundred years ago, when women finally got the right to vote?

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#56

Post by lapcat »

55555 wrote: post #53
lapcat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 2019, the 4B movement claimed to have 4,000 members! "This movement—known as “the four no’s”—began in 2019. It has since spread..." > Beware articles about problems or trends that neglect to quantify anything. "Despite the solid academic credentials of women in South Korea, according to a study by Statista, the gender pay gap is scandalous: men earn 30% more than women. This makes the country, according to the K…

I read the article. A sibling commenter has already mentioned the big issue with pay gap studies. I will only add that you can find studies showing domestic abuse prevalence at anywhere from 0% to 100% depending on what they define as abuse and how the survey is done. The article didn't really provide enough context for me to take the statistic seriously, as I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to be…

> I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives.

Nobody thinks that their friends are wife beaters.

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#57

Post by ipaddr »

beardedwizard wrote: post #40
dauertewigkeit wrote: post #34

I am really starting to hate this kind of journalism. There is a real story here, the gender inequality in South Korea. But it is dressed up into a ridiculous bunch of nonsense and portrayed as some kind of country wide "gender war", trying to evoke intense emotions in the reader. Why cannot one just be factual and informative instead?

If I was paid 30% less I might want to start a war.

Management usually makes 30%+ more than reports all around the world. Do you suggest workers want war around the globe?

Either you are happy with your pay or not. If my next door neighbour makes more it doesn't change my bills. If I make more than them it doesn't sudden make my bills easier to pay.

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#58

Post by Onewildgamer »

29athrowaway wrote: post #35
Onewildgamer wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such people you define will either be a toxic manager working their way through middle management or some mean worker who's an absolute jackass to work with. Nobody wants to work with such people. Every company has them, but a respectable company will have low number of such people. This seems like a blanket assumption that all are always low on empathy, all the time non-agreeable and always competing. A workplace wo…

I completely agree, but it seems we are not talking about the same thing. Did you read the article?

I sure did, why you ask anyway? The article titled a clickbait but goes on about why South Korean women can't raise children and be competitive in workplace, which I assume is the situation in South Korea. Either have mutual respect and willingness to contribute to household work just like in a company with colleagues or be there to witness the fall of civilisation.

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#59

Post by lapcat »

zen_1 wrote: post #55

> out-of-wedlock births represent only 2% of the total, compared to the average of 41% for women in the OECD. And this is framed as a negative ?

> And this is framed as a negative?

Yes, because it means there's very little freedom of choice.

Would you say that "shotgun weddings" are a positive?

Re: No dates, no sex, no weddings, no kids

#60

Post by 55555 »

lapcat wrote: post #56
55555 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article. A sibling commenter has already mentioned the big issue with pay gap studies. I will only add that you can find studies showing domestic abuse prevalence at anywhere from 0% to 100% depending on what they define as abuse and how the survey is done. The article didn't really provide enough context for me to take the statistic seriously, as I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to be…

> I know a lot of Korean people and personally struggle to believe that 8 out of 10 of them beat their wives. Nobody thinks that their friends are wife beaters.

I should have been more specific in my original comment and shouldn't have said "beware articles that don't quantify" things as it was indeed unduly confusing.
Post reply on HN