Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 135 posts

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#71

Post by atq2119 »

Dalewyn wrote: post #23
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

[flagged]

I agree that it's detached from reality in its absoluteness, but there's nothing particularly left or "woke" about this take. I think you're letting knee-jerk political biases get the better of you.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#72

Post by defrost »

cornholio wrote: post #52
defrost wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let them eat datacentres indeed. The counterpoint here is what gross tonnage per annum does the population of the Netherlands consume .. and in the event of supply chain disruptions, should (say) NATO hiccup, to what degree are they self sufficient? Farming and urban land uses aren't a straight either|or, they're a complex need both.

This is a moot point for about 60 years. Europe, like the US, have massive agricultural overproductions which distort the world markets, due to subsidies. Most of the disastrous monocultures are used to feed bovines, a very inefficient source of protein for the human diet. Basically, it's a lifestyle and politico-economic choice, not a need.

Indeed, it hasn't been an issue since the last big war in Europe and we can all see how unlikely such a thing is to happen again and that there's no need to have an insurance policy of any sort.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#73

Post by digitalengineer »

masklinn wrote: post #28
digitalengineer wrote: post #24

The datacenters are mostly air cooled but also use massive amounts of water when it gets warmer. Exactly during the times that f the year when citizens and farmers are called upon to use less water. How much? Independent studies showed up to 4 times more then Microsoft claimed. Furthermore the water they put back in the local lakes contains some unknown kind of chemical. So yeah I get why locals and farmers might be…

The farmers are mostly giant moaning hypocrites. They’re the cause of the nitrogen crisis.

Did you even read the comment?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#74

Post by twixfel »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #45
Scarblac wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Netherlands is tiny and the 2nd largest agricultural exporter in the world by value, after the US. After the hunger winter in 1944 we became obsessed with food production but there is such a thing as too much.

The “export” argument is so stupid when you see how far it is exported. On a US scale this mostly would be within state borders.

It's not stupid, they're literally exporting it. And I have to add, it's a whole new level of Americentrism that I have never seen before to define the word "export" in terms of the distances between US states.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#75

Post by [deleted] »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #20
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

>Agriculture competes with urbanization and it will always lose, as it should, because it's not an inherently superior or moral use of land Easy for you to say when you have a full stomach. See what happened in countries that disregard their farmers or agricultural sectors. Food price soared, and social unrest set in leading to crime, anarchy and governments collapsing. People need to eat, simple. Hungry people will…

[deleted]

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#76

Post by atq2119 »

tfourb wrote: post #49
sfvisser wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I own several buildings > expense in the low five figures > So what are people complaining about, exactly? This is an incredible take. Many people don’t have the luxury to just spend five figures on a mandatory house renovation.

Let me get this straight: - You own an asset worth 200,000-300,000 Euros - The required investment, which can be spread over up to ten years, is 20,000-30,000 Euros - You would have to make parts of this investment anyway, because your windows are leaky and your radiators are breaking - You will recoup the costs over 5-10 years because you use less energy - 25-50% of this investment will be covered by subsidies, the…

Not to mention that 200k-300k is the absolute low end for a house. Around here you're lucky to get something for 5 times that.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#77

Post by cornholio »

defrost wrote: post #72
cornholio wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a moot point for about 60 years. Europe, like the US, have massive agricultural overproductions which distort the world markets, due to subsidies. Most of the disastrous monocultures are used to feed bovines, a very inefficient source of protein for the human diet. Basically, it's a lifestyle and politico-economic choice, not a need.

Indeed, it hasn't been an issue since the last big war in Europe and we can all see how unlikely such a thing is to happen again and that there's no need to have an insurance policy of any sort.

Where does this need for an insurance policy stops? If Europe's trade and defense agreements are insuficient, then perhaps each country should aim for a 3x overproduction, to cover those bad agricultural years? Maybe each city should too? Or perhaps each citizen, we should all retreat to rural homesteads and live on pasture-fed cow meat - a demonstrably unsustainable dystopia that will turn the entire planet into a giant ball of dung and guarantee eventual starvation for every sentient creature inhabiting it? But at least the rural voters would be among the last to die, so there's that.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#78

Post by spiderfarmer »

twixfel wrote: post #74
spiderfarmer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “export” argument is so stupid when you see how far it is exported. On a US scale this mostly would be within state borders.

It's not stupid, they're literally exporting it. And I have to add, it's a whole new level of Americentrism that I have never seen before to define the word "export" in terms of the distances between US states.

It is stupid, because it just makes sense to have agriculture in a fertile area like the river delta in NL. And it doesn’t make sense to focus on protecting the very species that are not able to flourish without human intervention.

So, focus on protecting species that do well in nitrogen poor areas in the areas that are actually nitrogen poor.

If we move production around to average everything out we’ll end up with a more homogeneous Europe, less production and less biodiversity.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#79

Post by em-bee »

mtts wrote: post #27
KennyBlanken wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of agriculture are ecologically disastrous monocultures drenched in herbicides and fertilizers. In the EU they use substantially less pesticides and fertilizers than we do in the US, and have as good or better yields.

Maybe that’s just setting a low bar. Dutch agriculture is anything but a bucolic idyl, instead consisting of very large industrial operations owned by an ever decreasing number of companies that produce vast amounts of food for export using imported feed and plowing the manure that remains, truly stupendous amounts, into the soil thereby rendering it effectively dead. Large tracts of the province of Drente, formerly…

can the excess heat of the datacenter be used to heat up the greenhouses?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#80

Post by em-bee »

twixfel wrote: post #74
spiderfarmer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “export” argument is so stupid when you see how far it is exported. On a US scale this mostly would be within state borders.

It's not stupid, they're literally exporting it. And I have to add, it's a whole new level of Americentrism that I have never seen before to define the word "export" in terms of the distances between US states.

why? export within countries of the european union is comparable to export within states of the USA. i don't see the problem here.
Post reply on HN