These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft • Hacker News Board

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#41

Post by spiderfarmer » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:04 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #23

cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

[flagged]

It’s just plain arrogance, bossing entire groups of people around.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#42

Post by cr1895 » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:05 AM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #20

cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

>Agriculture competes with urbanization and it will always lose, as it should, because it's not an inherently superior or moral use of land Easy for you to say when you have a full stomach. See what happened in countries that disregard their farmers or agricultural sectors. Food price soared, and social unrest set in leading to crime, anarchy and governments collapsing. People need to eat, simple. Hungry people will…

>Being agriculturally self sufficient is essential for any country.

This is nothing to do with Netherlands’ own food self-sufficiency.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#43

Post by spiderfarmer » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:06 AM UTC

mirekrusin wrote: post #36

Why_O_My wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 percent of dutch meat is exported, we can do with a whole lot less.

Exported doesn't mean throwing in the trash, somebody is using and depending on it.

Also, most of it is only exported for a couple of miles to our nearest neighbors.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#44

Post by gpvos » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:08 AM UTC

MonaroVXR wrote: post #19

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lived in zeewolde near the place of the datacenter, I can tell you that its massive, especially considering how small the country is and how densely populated it is. Historically, flevoland was created for the express purpose of creating fertile land to farm on. The only reason they didn't build it on industrial land was because of anti-competitive deals with the zeewolde municipality in order to reduce the la…

As a Dutch man, there is very large one near supermarket... Adres: Pampusweg 13, 1398PT Muiden, Noord-Holland

It's basically the only one in the country.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#45

Post by spiderfarmer » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:10 AM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #31

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Agriculture competes with urbanization and it will always lose, as it should, because it's not an inherently superior or moral use of land Easy for you to say when you have a full stomach. See what happened in countries that disregard their farmers or agricultural sectors. Food price soared, and social unrest set in leading to crime, anarchy and governments collapsing. People need to eat, simple. Hungry people will…

The Netherlands is tiny and the 2nd largest agricultural exporter in the world by value, after the US. After the hunger winter in 1944 we became obsessed with food production but there is such a thing as too much.

The “export” argument is so stupid when you see how far it is exported. On a US scale this mostly would be within state borders.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#46

Post by bojan » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:12 AM UTC

sfvisser wrote: post #32

tfourb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a negotiating position (!) by the EU Parliament, not a finished regulation or decree. Regarding the actual content: If adopted as proposed (which is unlikely), it would force owners of the 30% of least energy efficient houses (compared to the national, not EU-wide, housing stock) to upgrade their houses to come in line with the next higher energy efficiency class – by 2033, so ten years from now. I own severa…

> I own several buildings > expense in the low five figures > So what are people complaining about, exactly? This is an incredible take. Many people don’t have the luxury to just spend five figures on a mandatory house renovation.

It will be heavily subsidized. Nobody will get into trouble for not being able to afford insulation. That's not how the law in European countries works.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#47

Post by tonyg » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:15 AM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39

bojan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

No one "worked for generations". We each get one lifetime, that's it.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#48

Post by bojan » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:16 AM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39

bojan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

That dubious take, even if true, doesn't give them the right to destroy nature of the entire country.

Among other things, their influence on the water management policy has an effect of private homes literally sinking in certain parts of the country.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#49

Post by tfourb » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:17 AM UTC

sfvisser wrote: post #32

tfourb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a negotiating position (!) by the EU Parliament, not a finished regulation or decree. Regarding the actual content: If adopted as proposed (which is unlikely), it would force owners of the 30% of least energy efficient houses (compared to the national, not EU-wide, housing stock) to upgrade their houses to come in line with the next higher energy efficiency class – by 2033, so ten years from now. I own severa…

> I own several buildings > expense in the low five figures > So what are people complaining about, exactly? This is an incredible take. Many people don’t have the luxury to just spend five figures on a mandatory house renovation.

Let me get this straight:

- You own an asset worth 200,000-300,000 Euros

- The required investment, which can be spread over up to ten years, is 20,000-30,000 Euros

- You would have to make parts of this investment anyway, because your windows are leaky and your radiators are breaking

- You will recoup the costs over 5-10 years because you use less energy

- 25-50% of this investment will be covered by subsidies, the government will also provide low-interest loans for much of the rest

How is this an absurd demand to make of people who own a house?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#50

Post by rr842j » Sun, Apr 02, 2023, 7:18 AM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39

bojan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

They are not taking the farms from them, they are buying them.

Agro-industry in the Netherlands is unsustainable and all the parties involved know it. Whatever they say, what we're watching here is just the buyout negotiations.