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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#11

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

>Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy.

Why are the Dutch angry with EU and Microsoft and not with their elected Dutch government officials who set up these legal tax dodging opportunities to attract such corporations in the first place?

They made the rules, Microsoft (and other companies) are just following them.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#12

Post by bitwize »

smcg wrote: post #8
waihtis wrote: post #5

The EU keep pumping out these absolutely ridiculous green policies that have crippling effects locally. Recently they brought out a new energy efficiency directive which could cause up to 50% (!) of Finnish flats & houses to require sizeable renovations. Brussels have been very effective in transforming a useful economic union into a centrally managed dystopian nightmare that a lot of people will soon be willing to b…

They can only make never-effective fig leaf policies because actual good green policies would upset the applecart.

Indeed. If you really wanted to implement effective green policies, they would involve reducing the global population to around half a billion max and keeping them at pre-industrial levels of technological development.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#13

Post by cornholio »

holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc.

The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land use is utterly ridiculous.

Agriculture competes with urbanization and it will always lose, as it should, because it's not an inherently superior or moral use of land: most of agriculture are ecologically disastrous monocultures drenched in herbicides and fertilizers. A corn field is not a bucolic utopia, but a carefully managed anthropic environment where nature was all but banished for the economic welfare of the rural population.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#14

Post by KennyBlanken »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

> most of agriculture are ecologically disastrous monocultures drenched in herbicides and fertilizers.

In the EU they use substantially less pesticides and fertilizers than we do in the US, and have as good or better yields.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#15

Post by Out_of_Characte »

Animats wrote: post #3

Terrible article. "Nitrogen, produced by cars, agriculture, and heavy machinery used in construction, can be a dangerous pollutant, damaging ecosystems and endangering people's health." Huh? Nitrogen? But since 2015, the country has also witnessed the arrival of enormous “hyperscalers,” buildings that generally span at least 10,000 square feet". They may have obtained that definition from here.[1] That's not a big da…

I have lived in zeewolde near the place of the datacenter, I can tell you that its massive, especially considering how small the country is and how densely populated it is. Historically, flevoland was created for the express purpose of creating fertile land to farm on. The only reason they didn't build it on industrial land was because of anti-competitive deals with the zeewolde municipality in order to reduce the land usage costs. Also, there are no big supermarkets in the Netherlands.

From an american perspective I can understand that this doesnt make alot of sense. but zeewolde is just shy of 60km from schiphol airport. Distances, building sizes and infrastructure and everything else has adapted really well to this dense country, this datacenter is not.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#16

Post by bambam3000 »

bitwize wrote: post #12
smcg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can only make never-effective fig leaf policies because actual good green policies would upset the applecart.

Indeed. If you really wanted to implement effective green policies, they would involve reducing the global population to around half a billion max and keeping them at pre-industrial levels of technological development.

Is this sarcasm?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#17

Post by Joeri »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #11
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

>Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Why are the Dutch angry with EU and Microsoft and not with their elected Dutch government officials who set up these legal tax dodging opportunities to attract such corporations in the first place? They made the rules, Microsoft (and other companies) are just following them.

They actually just had an election sweep where the incumbent government got punished badly for their perceived elitist policies.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#18

Post by Out_of_Characte »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #10
jpollock wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitrogen run-off can be a major pollutant in waterways. It can either be over-fertilization, or cow dung and urine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024564/ https://www.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/sources-and-solutions-... .

While nitrogen run-off is a large problem in many parts of the world, that's not what is being referred to here. This is about air pollution from their diesel farm equipment (and likely things like heating systems for greenhouses and animal barns etc.)

I know its confusing but 'the nitrogen problem' does indeed refer to fixed nitrogen run-off pollution

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#19

Post by MonaroVXR »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #15
Animats wrote: post #3

Terrible article. "Nitrogen, produced by cars, agriculture, and heavy machinery used in construction, can be a dangerous pollutant, damaging ecosystems and endangering people's health." Huh? Nitrogen? But since 2015, the country has also witnessed the arrival of enormous “hyperscalers,” buildings that generally span at least 10,000 square feet". They may have obtained that definition from here.[1] That's not a big da…

I have lived in zeewolde near the place of the datacenter, I can tell you that its massive, especially considering how small the country is and how densely populated it is. Historically, flevoland was created for the express purpose of creating fertile land to farm on. The only reason they didn't build it on industrial land was because of anti-competitive deals with the zeewolde municipality in order to reduce the la…

As a Dutch man, there is very large one near supermarket...

Adres: Pampusweg 13, 1398PT Muiden, Noord-Holland

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#20

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

>Agriculture competes with urbanization and it will always lose, as it should, because it's not an inherently superior or moral use of land

Easy for you to say when you have a full stomach. See what happened in countries that disregard their farmers or agricultural sectors. Food price soared, and social unrest set in leading to crime, anarchy and governments collapsing.

People need to eat, simple. Hungry people will eventually turn to crime to survive, including the people paid form your taxes to protect you (police, military, etc)

Being agriculturally self sufficient is essential for any country.

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