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New insights into why aspirin works so well

eurekalert.org

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Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#191

Post by mulmen »

chatmasta wrote: post #188
selfmodruntime wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Science has all along been testing if something works and then finding out why. Often the „why“ is orders of magnitudes harder to find out than the „if“. For example, we can observe how the brain functions in some instances, but why it works like does will elude us perhaps forever. Highly complex systems like the inner biomechanical workings of our brains are essentially a black box.

I'm not sure that invalidates GP's point. Your comment is basically just repeating his premise. If we don't understand the why, we don't understand the how. We can spend years testing that "it works," but we're only testing for a specific outcome and checking for specific risks. Without understanding the how or why, we have little way of knowing what we don't know.

We start with what then much later to how which finally leads us to why.

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#192

Post by [deleted] »

mulmen wrote: post #191
chatmasta wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that invalidates GP's point. Your comment is basically just repeating his premise. If we don't understand the why, we don't understand the how. We can spend years testing that "it works," but we're only testing for a specific outcome and checking for specific risks. Without understanding the how or why, we have little way of knowing what we don't know.

We start with what then much later to how which finally leads us to why .

[deleted]

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#193

Post by hnbad »

INTPenis wrote: post #124

When you say in 2023 that they have "new insights" as to why a common over the counter drug works it really doesn't instill great confidence in pharma. Seems like we're still grinding up rhino horns and tiger penis and hoping for the best outcome, just that we do it with extensive testing now so we get a statistically acceptable outcome viable for marketing.

Honestly, aspirin is really closer to "grinding up rhino horns" than to complex pharmaceuticals you have to make in a lab. It's literally "drink this tea made from willow bark" except we got better at isolating the active components and finding other ways to produce them and more reliably measuring the dosage.

The difference is that empirical studies have demonstrated the effect of "willow bark tea" and the lack of an effect of "ground up rhino horn".

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#194

Post by krisoft »

oldgradstudent wrote: post #146
INTPenis wrote: post #124

When you say in 2023 that they have "new insights" as to why a common over the counter drug works it really doesn't instill great confidence in pharma. Seems like we're still grinding up rhino horns and tiger penis and hoping for the best outcome, just that we do it with extensive testing now so we get a statistically acceptable outcome viable for marketing.

If we could reliably show that ground rhino horns and tiger penises work, we'd be using them, or finding an easily mass produced derivatives.

Same as we did with willow bark and ended up with aspirin we have today.

History of aspirin: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/bjh.14520

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#195

Post by hcrisp »

tpm wrote: post #181
zabzonk wrote: post #8

annecdata: aspirin is pretty good as an anti-inflamitory and hence pain-killer. the reason i don't take it is that it irritates the stomach, and i have enough issues with my insides as it is (irritable-bowel syndrome - not fun) i currently use cocodamol (codeine and paracetomol) to control my arthritic pain, but it isn't doing so great. at the end of the day, if you really need pain control, you probably want a pure…

There are other, even OTC, painkiller medications that might be worth trying. Diclofenac (Voltaren/Flector etc) or Metamizole (variously banned, prescription-only or OTC seemingly random around the world) for example, and then there some newer non-opioid painkillers maybe worth trying but those are mostly prescription only.

Also meloxicam, a higher potency anti-inflammatory tolerated by the stomach better than other options

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#196

Post by acc_297 »

INTPenis wrote: post #124

When you say in 2023 that they have "new insights" as to why a common over the counter drug works it really doesn't instill great confidence in pharma. Seems like we're still grinding up rhino horns and tiger penis and hoping for the best outcome, just that we do it with extensive testing now so we get a statistically acceptable outcome viable for marketing.

Recently started working in pharma and this was somewhat of a surprise for me as well having never taken any biology in school - drug approval for bio equivalence has tolerance intervals of like 5-10% - on my first day I worked on some data for an aspirin generic that showed crazy high variance across subjects I think biochemistry might be one of those final frontier sciences we are such a long way from what physics has in the standard model (if the standard model is correct)

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#197

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

dTal wrote: post #183
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no proven medical effects to many medicines that work wonderfully.

That's oxymoronic - if there are no proven medical effects, definitionally they do not work wonderfully.

It's not, proving a medical effect and having a medical effect are orthogonal concepts. The world doesn't wait on medical science to keep turning.

A lot of medical recommendations are based on expert opinion, which means there is no proof of their effectiveness but there is a logical basis based on our current understanding of the human body.

New studies come out every day proving the effect of certain herbs, extracts or therapies for certain pathologies, yet these therapies were known to work long before the studies came out.

Even some synthetic drugs are approved without having been demonstrated to be effective at what they claim, for example osteoporosis drugs still haven't been proven to reduce fractures yet get prescribed every day for that very use.

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#198

Post by ifyoubuildit »

dTal wrote: post #183
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no proven medical effects to many medicines that work wonderfully.

That's oxymoronic - if there are no proven medical effects, definitionally they do not work wonderfully.

Except proven has a strict definition here that leaves out other possibilities.

You could find some compound that reliably induces an effect in your own body, but has never been studied by anyone else. By the definition we're using here, that could be something thats working wonderfully but has no "proven" medical effects.

Not saying this is advisable, only that pharma companies and their trials don't dictate reality.

Re: New insights into why aspirin works so well

#199

Post by tinco »

chatmasta wrote: post #188
selfmodruntime wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Science has all along been testing if something works and then finding out why. Often the „why“ is orders of magnitudes harder to find out than the „if“. For example, we can observe how the brain functions in some instances, but why it works like does will elude us perhaps forever. Highly complex systems like the inner biomechanical workings of our brains are essentially a black box.

I'm not sure that invalidates GP's point. Your comment is basically just repeating his premise. If we don't understand the why, we don't understand the how. We can spend years testing that "it works," but we're only testing for a specific outcome and checking for specific risks. Without understanding the how or why, we have little way of knowing what we don't know.

Ground rhino horn and tiger penis don't have measurable results, sure it's not ideal we might not understand how aspirin does what it does, but at least we know that it does something. That's not even in the same ballpark as Chinese medicine so comparing them just for that reason is disingenuous.

We don't test medicine for marketing, we test them for results. If homeopathy and Chinese medicine would teach us one thing it's that testing only for marketing would be the greatest waste of time and money ever.

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