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Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

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Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#181

Post by rkta »

namaria wrote: post #164
solarkraft wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employees being termed "dependents" of the company is a big tell on Italy's work culture In german there's a funny situation as well: The employer is called the "work provider", while the employee is the "work receiver". Thank you, company, for providing me with work.

>In german there's a funny situation as well: The employer is called the "work provider", while the employee is the "work receiver" Hm in Dutch I'd translate werknemer as 'work taker'... is it very different from that in German?

No, it's actually pretty close. German werknemer is Arbeitnehmer.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#183

Post by PeterisP »

orwin wrote: post #117
toldyouso2022 wrote: post #64

The whole women perspective is ridicolous. I subscribe to the pov that there is no pay gap between sexes sprouting from hateful discrimination. But this will be great for Italy because a huge problem of our labor market is that salary is considered something dirty. This law may create a better culture. I hope so.

It's not malice, it's cultural. The pay gap exists because women tends to negociate less. And in male-dominated fields (fields that on average, pay more), they tend to be less outspoken, thus less visible, and as every dev here know, at least 50% of all promotions are based on visibility/performative work and not real skills. This law won't change anything for the wage gap (which is smaller and smaller are companies…

> This law won't change anything for the wage gap

On the contrary, a law like this is clearly a benefit for all people who tend to negotiate less - that reduces the information asymmetry and the role of "haggling"; so I would definitely expect this to reduce the wage gap between the people who currently get market-rate salary because they do hard negotiation and those who currently do not.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#184

Post by tfourb »

qwytw wrote: post #166
tfourb wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salaries in Germany (and other European countries) are lower than in the US because German citizens receive a lot of benefits through government budgets that US citizens can only dream of. healthcare, essentially free higher education on a level easily comparable to most U.S. universities, better quality primary and secondary education, free or low cost (depending on the state) childcare from age 2-3, comparatively d…

> Salaries in Germany (and other European countries) are lower than in the US because German citizens receive a lot of benefits through government budgets that US citizens can only dream So all this justifies German employers paying their workers less? I'm not sure how should this make sense. All of those things you've mentioned are great and are financed through taxation paid by the workers... So just compare pretax…

Yes, it justifies it because public services and insurance do, well, insure you against a lot of negative events that you would have to compensate for with much higher disposable income otherwise.

I.e. my child is severely disabled (not an example, it is actually the case) since birth. Adequately caring for his health, his special educational needs and required assistance in daily live would cost me between 5,000 and 10,000 Euros/month. I actually do not know the exact figure for sure, because I pay only a fraction of this out of pocket. Within the framework of the U.S. financial system, this would have ruined our families finances, my parents (considerable) savings and likely my other son's future earning potential, despite me and my wife both being the offspring of quite well-of families and us not having any student debt despite both having an M.A. degree. It would have locked both me and my wife into potentially sub-optimal employments simply to have some form of health coverage, while still under the soul-crushing fear that someday some manager decides I'm not "efficient" enough to merit payment.

As it is, I have to spend a lot of time on bureaucracy and even more time on caring for my son, but guess what: he is getting some of the best health and educational care available anywhere and I can still afford to go out for dinner once in a while and know that while certainly unnerving and disruptive, a bad turn in my personal luck will not sentence my child to suffer because I can't afford to care for him.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#185

Post by DeathArrow »

piva00 wrote: post #124
roenxi wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen what "solidarity" did to the manufacturing industry. I'd like my job to stay in my city. And anyone in tech has a lot more to gain from efforts to break the remaining guild-like systems in medicine and law making those services more affordable and available than they do from attempts to build a new one in tech.

And I've seen what solidarity (without the scary quotes) did to Sweden (and other Nordics), Germany, etc. as societies for the working class. A union is not a guild, it's not about creating barriers of entry like in law or medicine, unsure why you conflate those concepts. Perhaps it's from ignorance, or perhaps from the fears that the ruling class instilled into you.

I've seen what socialist governments did in Sweden: income taxes that can reach 72%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#186

Post by DeathArrow »

piva00 wrote: post #148
roenxi wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it d…

I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that. > All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there. Because USA's wages are the massive oddball here, not the standard. And to…

> I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that.

By "worker solidarity" you mean laws enforced by socialist bureaucrats? Equality of outcomes, no matter the merits or the work put in? Is that a sustainable model? Does it allow for economic and technical progresses being made?

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#187

Post by ExoticPearTree »

piva00 wrote: post #144
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality is a socialist fairytale and unions is what keeps innovation from happening. All they want is for all workers to earn the same wage because equality and other BS like this, stifle the company from firing people when they're not needed anymore and so on. As an employee you need to be able to earn as much as possible and climb the ladder as high as possible with no impediments to this. And yes, be the next tec…

"When education isn't liberating, the dream of the oppressed is to become the oppressor" fits really well with your comment. If unions keep innovation from happening how can Sweden be considered one of the most innovative countries on Earth? Or how can Germany be a powerhouse of engineering and building the machines that build machines? Your take is a regurgitation of the usual talking points that the elite class use…

I would argue workers create indirect value, because what they do in the end is to execute the vision of the founder of the company. They would have created actual value for themselves if they would have had the vision and the grit to start a company.

What was invented in Sweden that is so groundbreaking they're the most innovative country on the planet?

Regarding technology, it happened in a country unencumbered by unions at every step. Yeah, the US sucks at a lot of things, but at least it's crazy bent on have unions everywhere.

I think that if you're good enough you have all the leverage that you need to be successful. You don't need to join an union for this.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#188

Post by qthrowayq0909 »

oblio wrote: post #59

It's incredible how many people here are against transparency and a better labor market providing more information to the supplier side. Lord knows companies have probably 80% of the leverage in the job market. Tech people are doomed not by AIs, but by lack of solidarity, raw greed and lack of long term vision.

Not to state the obvious but the fact that this commend is the most upvoted in this thread kind of proves one of the premises wrong.

It seems that a lot of people are for transparency (I certainly am) despite them not being too vocal about it.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#189

Post by DeathArrow »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #169
piva00 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that. > All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there. Because USA's wages are the massive oddball here, not the standard. And to…

>ASML is in the EU, are you going to say they can't do tech? My god, if I had a biscuit crumb for every time someone on HN mentioned ASML as an example of European tech dominance, I would have died from obesity several times over. The simple fact that ASML (and sometimes Spotify) is the only name that comes to mind when discussion EU tech dominance, speaks volumes. (I'm European BTW) Where is EU's iPhone? Or Android?…

> Where is EU's iPhone? Or Android? Or Windows? Or Intel? Or AWS? Or Office365? Or Google? Or ChatGPT? Or Xbox? Or Steam? Or Netflix? Or Nvidia? Or Micron? Or AMD?

Some examples of Eu based tech would be: Nokia killed by MS, an US company. Skype. SAP. ARM, UiPath, Bitdefender.

But is true, we are unable to compete with US on tech. Part of the reasons is that we don't have good startup ecosystem and hubs, we don't have tech hubs, we don't have tech investors, our tech and entrepreneurship culture might be lacking. But another part is that big US tech companies are monopolies and they are trying to stifle the competition and succeeding at it.

Both EU bureaucrats and each country's politicians don't care. No one does a single thing to try to improve the EU tech ecosystem.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#190

Post by tfourb »

robertlagrant wrote: post #162
tfourb wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salaries in Germany (and other European countries) are lower than in the US because German citizens receive a lot of benefits through government budgets that US citizens can only dream of. healthcare, essentially free higher education on a level easily comparable to most U.S. universities, better quality primary and secondary education, free or low cost (depending on the state) childcare from age 2-3, comparatively d…

> (and it is mostly luck, don't kid yourself) This is a big misconception. It's mostly not luck. Different societies can and do focus on different things. The US focuses a lot more on innovation and progress, and invents and pioneers a lot of the things that other societies, who spend their money on other things, then get to benefit from. Sadly, some of the occupants of the latter also taking a moral stand against th…

According to wikipedia, 9 of the 10 richest persons are white men from an upper-middle-class or upper class social background. Even people like Sergey Brin, Mukesh Ambani and Carlos Slim, while not born in the U.S. or Western Europe, have parents that were part of their countries' academic or business elite. Do you have any conception of how lucky you have to be to be born into such circumstances instead of being raised in the slums of Nairobi?

Simply put, if hard work would be the deciding factor, every 30-year old Nigerian woman toiling on her small farm while caring for several children would be richer than Jeff Bezos. Yes, hard work matters at the margin but the fact that the guy across the street is picking his food out of a dumpster while you order Uber Eats is mostly down to the the parents you are born to, the place and time you live in, random stuff like getting sick as a child and so on. Get over it, it doesn't mean that you have to feel bad about yourself but it does mean that you should not be an absolute ass to people less lucky than you are and respect demands for more solidarity with them.

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