Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#21

Post by ClumsyPilot » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:17 AM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #14

The two reasons I disagree with publishing salaries and "ranges" are that a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued and b) the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value offered. Together these create a race to the bottom in off…

> the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value

does open tender create similar outcones- should tenders for construction have price hidden?

Should other markets hide prices, for example healthcare services?

it appears that an argument agaist knowing salary or price upfront is an argument against open markets in general

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#22

Post by LoganDark » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:18 AM UTC

justinclift wrote: post #13

carabiner wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs/267459043

Heh: "The overall market range for roles in this area of Netflix is typically $90,000 - $900,000"

That's so terrible. The "overall market" range for "roles in this area" are "typically" anywhere within an entire order of magnitude. I haven't seen anything vaguer in my entire time on this earth.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#23

Post by Vanit » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:25 AM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #14

The two reasons I disagree with publishing salaries and "ranges" are that a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued and b) the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value offered. Together these create a race to the bottom in off…

I think this is only true of the lower end where poorly performing companies are looking to hire poorly performing (or junior) devs, where they care more about bums in seats than actual productivity per person.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#24

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:26 AM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #19

It would make more sense to publish lowest paid, highest paid, median and average salaries across the entire structure of the company. Plus data about other compensation in the form of bonuses, stock options, etc.

[deleted]

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#25

Post by usrusr » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:28 AM UTC

aikinai wrote: post #20

121789 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the logic around transparency not giving an advantage to talent, could you expand? Certainly seems like there are counter examples in many places where compensation is public

I'm not sure if I completely follow the parent, but I would also be concerned since it means it'll be far more difficult to negotiate above the range. In the obfuscated market, if you are good at proving your value and negotiating, then the usual range people have in mind for that type of job becomes less relevant. But if the range is explicit and paying one person above that range will disadvantage the company (sinc…

> It should be good for the middle and low ends, but I expect pretty bad for the high-end of any given job type.

The high end are doing good by definition. The exceptionally talented are winning anyways, if they win a little less outlyingly they will still be winning. It's not as if this would be a project of "pay everybody exactly the same".

Who might in theory consider this regulation a problem is companies who like to hire a mix of bottom of the barrel cheap and gold plated rockstars, but in reality those would already have separate roles for these opposites and are therefore not affected are all.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#26

Post by layer8 » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:29 AM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #9

sokoloff wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > They will not have to publish the precise salary due to fears that this could be commercially sensitive. If you're going to preserve the commercially sensitive nature of pay at a given firm, the tolerances that you must accept will be several multiples higher than the cited 13 percent difference in pay between men and women.

.. why on earth would we preserve that? Should supermarkets not show prices?

If job applicants were as standardized as supermarket products, that would seem reasonable.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#27

Post by lucumo » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:30 AM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #16

motohagiography wrote: post #14

The two reasons I disagree with publishing salaries and "ranges" are that a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued and b) the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value offered. Together these create a race to the bottom in off…

I guess I like seeing the range as an applicant, but I do strongly agree with you in terms of paying people based off what they can command as individuals. Does a large range absolve your concerns?

Not entirely the same situation, but when companies have full salary transparency (i.e. the salaries of all are known to all), then there will be fewer outliers. So, there are fewer "underpaid" people, but also fewer "overpaid" people. I put those terms in scare-quotes because it's unknown whether or not those differences were deserved or not.

I did have a source for that, but it was in a podcast and I can't remember which. (1) The assumed mechanism made sense to me though: companies/managers would need to be able to justify salaries to anyone, which is much harder for outliers than for an average salary. It could be detrimental to company peace to hire somebody who earns 50% over everybody else, even if they are worth it.

It changed my mind a bit on whether I like transparency. I used to like it unconditionally, but now I'm not so sure. At least in an opaque world, there's skills you can learn to become an outlier. With transparency the average could hinder your salary growth even more than it already does.

(1) One of the weird things about listening to podcasts is I sometimes remember my physical location when hearing something better than the actual source of the information. That's also what happened here. I remember the traffic light I was stopped at, but not the podcast.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#28

Post by ecshafer » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:40 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #18

motohagiography wrote: post #14

The two reasons I disagree with publishing salaries and "ranges" are that a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued and b) the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value offered. Together these create a race to the bottom in off…

>a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued Doesn't this logic rest on the assumption that companies that pay better than average are doing it accidentally? Facebook has a reputation for paying better than many other tech companies for example. If I know that, Facebook surely knows that. Why would they stop doing that just because o…

It goes a bit beyond that in reality. Companies buy salary data for certain industry segments, then have a goal to pay within a percentile range. A company may say aim to pay on the 50-60th percentile of insurance companies for example.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#29

Post by Mandatum » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:43 AM UTC

Every salary range I've ever seen has been negotiable unless it's for government or tertiary roles. I don't understand how this helps except for quickly assessing who the top players are in the market, which you'll already know.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#30

Post by Aeolun » Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 1:49 AM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #14

The two reasons I disagree with publishing salaries and "ranges" are that a) the implicit collusion creates mean reversion that disadvantages talent, who can afford to leave and go where they are valued and b) the values behind it presume that a job is something paternalistic granted by a manager in return for supplication, and not due consideration for value offered. Together these create a race to the bottom in off…

> not due consideration for value offered

How does that work? If the value offered isn't enough, then I'm not working somewhere. Now I can skip the part where I still have to do the interview first before they tell me that 'based on experience' maxes out at 80k.