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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#231

Post by addy34 »

scrubs wrote: post #97
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

Although off topic from the original post, would you entertain this question? What's Taiwan's position on integration with China? What does Taiwan want for itself? I'd like to hear more about that minus American and Chinese input.

Having lived in Taiwan both before and after China's crackdown in Hong Kong, I can say that post crackdown, I haven't encountered a single Taiwanese that wants any integration with China. They just want to be Taiwanese, which after nearly a century of being an independently governed country, is very different from the life on mainland China.

And yet most of the young people I encounter are somewhat resigned to the inevitability of invasion.

Prior to the HK affair, some older Taiwanese I met would suggest that closer integration could bring economic benefits, but I don't hear that these days.

With a number of HK journalists that I respect now in prison or having fled, I can only agree. The HK spirit and culture that once thrived in the city has all but disappeared, as the Chinese government applies their embrace and extinguish approach to cultural assimilation. When you can be imprisoned for life for uttering the wrong words, it tends to silence any dissent.

Re: Leaving China

#232

Post by puppymaster »

jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

and it's not just one of those fake democracy - it's as free as a true democratic country can be, as experienced anecdotally and demonstrated in their constant top 3 finish in Freedom Index.

Re: Leaving China

#234

Post by _kava »

partiallypro wrote: post #124
tomohelix wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let say China and the US come into open conflict and everyone is forced to choose a side, which side do you think Vietnam will pick? China and Vietnam share a long history and culture. They are also right next to each other and have the same government type. Vietnam has openly showed their desire to work with China at the cost of the US. They sent some top diplomats to China right after the US diplomats came to visit…

A vast majority of Vietnamese view China in a worse light than the US, and China and Vietnam have recently had quarrels over the South China Sea. They share a lot of history...and some of that history includes China invading Vietnam several times. I wouldn't count on Vietnam siding with China in a global conflict.

>I wouldn't count on Vietnam siding with China in a global conflict.

The last global conflict had the current Vietnamese government sided with China and the USSR against the US. I think you already lost that bet.

I would like to ask you for sources on Vietnamese sentiment regarding China and the US. But that is probably irrelevant. What the majority of Vietnamese think ultimately doesn't mean anything, because it isn't a democracy. What the communist party think is more important. And I would bet two communist parties are probably chummier with each other than with the US.

Re: Leaving China

#235

Post by danrocks »

dirtyid wrote: post #141
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

>It almost felt like another Chinese city ... >If I were to live in Asia, it might have once included Hong Kong because of its unique British history OTOH this attitude is why PRC finally calibrating HK for PRC nationals/one-way permits instead of privileged foreign expats was long overdue. Mainlanders I know in HK find the new mix PRC/HK mix more preferable than UK/HK, less visible discrimination etc. Local nativism…

[flagged]

Re: Leaving China

#236

Post by maxloh »

jasonjei wrote: post #110
scrubs wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although off topic from the original post, would you entertain this question? What's Taiwan's position on integration with China? What does Taiwan want for itself? I'd like to hear more about that minus American and Chinese input.

This is an extremely interesting question because I’ve heard various viewpoints. The vast majority want to keep the “technical debt” (legacy code being “Republic of China”) of this uneasy bridge to China—that is trade and movement of people between the strait, and maintaining the status quo of the “Republic of China” government (controlling Taiwan) and PRC (controlling China or “mainland”). Many Taiwanese don’t want…

> Recent elections have shown KMT party (pro-PRC relations, the grandfather of the Republic of China government, and in someways the father party of the Communists that forked from KMT) gaining ground because people are afraid of war. Nobody in Taiwan wants war, but as the saying goes, in order to have peace, prepare for war.

Maybe data suggest otherwise?

The number of Taiwaneses that support Taiwan to "Maintain status quo, move towards unification" and "Unification as soon as possible" has been dropped from 12.8% and 5.0% in 2018 to 7.5% and 1.4% in 2019. Meanwhile the number of Taiwaneses that support "Maintain status quo, move towards independence" has been rised from 12.8% in 2018 to 25.8% in 2020.

Note: I am a one of the HongKongers fled to Taiwan after the Anti-Extradition protest in 2019.

[0]: https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963

Re: Leaving China

#237

Post by DiscourseFan »

tomohelix wrote: post #101
DiscourseFan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and Vietnam are very strong allies now, its unlikely that will ever happen.

I don't think we have an alliance with Vietnam. AFAIK, there is no US base or military agreement or anything indicating a higher relationship than trade partner. In fact, a few times DC sent some diplomats to Vietnam, the govt over there responded by sending their diplomats to China. Basically saying they prefer China over the US. It makes sense to them since China is closer and have higher trade value than the US. B…

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/30/vietnamese-...

I read this a few years ago, not sure how much it reflects reality. Anecdotally, immigration from Vietnam is still strong, except the more recent immigrants I've met are pro-communist (as opposed to the first and second generations of Vietnamese immediately following the war).

I'd imagine that the US and Vietnam are allies in the same way that Israel and Egypt are allies. Publicly, they have to show opposition, but privately they work together economically, militarily, and everyone knows that they aren't actually at odds with each other.

Re: Leaving China

#238

Post by okasaki »

charlieyu1 wrote: post #161
dirtyid wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It almost felt like another Chinese city ... >If I were to live in Asia, it might have once included Hong Kong because of its unique British history OTOH this attitude is why PRC finally calibrating HK for PRC nationals/one-way permits instead of privileged foreign expats was long overdue. Mainlanders I know in HK find the new mix PRC/HK mix more preferable than UK/HK, less visible discrimination etc. Local nativism…

And the result is mass exodus of Hongkongers, especially the younger generation. 110K people moved to UK alone in the last two years. That's 1.5% of population, and UK alone. People are leaving the city faster than back in East Germany before Berlin Wall. And why people born and raised in Hong Kong have to give way to privileged mainlanders who don't share any culture with us at all?

They may have moved, but how many will ultimately stay in the UK?

I find that asians often have very rosy ideas about the UK, but once they're here they're bound to notice that it's a decaying shithole and leave. Or maybe commit suicide like that 27 year old woman in London.

Re: Leaving China

#239

Post by threeseed »

dirtyid wrote: post #141
jasonjei wrote: post #63

I used to travel to China all the time for work during my first job in 2008. Those times were super optimistic. Hong Kong was filled with Chinese pride, and it seemed inevitable that China would absorb Taiwan. China had just hosted the Olympics. I visited Hong Kong late 2018 after many years of not having been there. It was a very different place from the Hong Kong I had visited in 2009-2011. The energy was a bit dar…

>It almost felt like another Chinese city ... >If I were to live in Asia, it might have once included Hong Kong because of its unique British history OTOH this attitude is why PRC finally calibrating HK for PRC nationals/one-way permits instead of privileged foreign expats was long overdue. Mainlanders I know in HK find the new mix PRC/HK mix more preferable than UK/HK, less visible discrimination etc. Local nativism…

If you swap out the entire population of HK with those from PRC then all you have left is a name and a bunch of buildings. Because it is the people and their unique customs that defines a culture.

You seem to be way too flippant about cultural genocide.

Re: Leaving China

#240

Post by Swizec »

xattt wrote: post #215
dumpster_fire wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait why is that a problem? Nationality and ethnicity are two different things.

It’s a problem in that not a common way to perceive one’s identity and more difficult for others to relate to the situation. Consider the way Russians-in-exile perceive themselves in the current geopolitical context.

> It’s a problem in that not a common way to perceive one’s identity

This is super common in Europe. We have people who think of themselves as X and speak Xian as their mother tongue even though the region has been part of Y country for centuries.

Slovenians, for example, managed to survive under foreign rule for about 1100 years before re-gaining independence.

Nationality and ethnicity are very different concepts.

for a more American example: Ask any of the indigenous peoples how they feel about their American, Canadian, Mexican, etc. nationality.

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