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Leaving China

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Re: Leaving China

#81

Post by hayst4ck »

ersiees wrote: post #3

Why do we call people expats and not rich migrants or something like that?

While there are very jaded views about cultural superiority and other things like that. I think the truth is probably less cynical.

I can move to japan and marry a Japanese wife, work for a Japanese company, pay Japanese taxes, and speak fluent Japanese, but I will never be Japanese because my skin is white.

People can move to America, and as long as you speak English without an accent, there is an assumption that you are American.

If the place you move will assimilate you, then I would call that migrancy. If the place you move will never accept you, then I would call that ex-patriotism.

People who move to civil societies migrate, people who move to ethnic societies become ex-patriots.

I strongly recommend reading this: https://www.amacad.org/publication/what-does-it-mean-be-amer...

It really puts into perspective conservatism and liberalism by showing their contextual effects on immigration.

Re: Leaving China

#82

Post by yibg »

xiaolingxiao wrote: post #2

Can other expats who has since left, or have decided to stay, share their experience as well?

I spent 3 years in China before Covid. Happened to be out of the country during initial lockdown and that was that. My experiences are pre Covid so things may be different now, I don’t know.

Pros:

- very vibrant, never bored even though when I went I didn’t know anyone really

- I was paid a Silicon Valley salary so high income compared to the typical local. Can afford a very nice lifestyle

- due to demographics and being an “actual” expat, as opposed to English teacher, was respected

Cons:

- general quality of life. Traffic, pollution, food and water safety etc

- can be hard to make deep connection except with other expats. Just different cultures and values.

- lack of freedom and censorship. Vpn needed for everything, and even then doesn’t always work. Certain topics are avoided

- there is a surface level fakeness that I personally really dislike.

It’s a fun place to be for a while when you have the income and status. But for me at least not a place to be long term.

Re: Leaving China

#83

Post by cutemonster »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #61
chasil wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no place, and no time, where people are better than what you see before you right now. Sometimes, the political system is better. People? There is nothing new under the sun.

This a a strange postmodern take. All places and cultures are really equal? Maybe Im missing your point, but to take a hyperbolic example, surely you wouldn't live in north Korea and say "There is no place, and no time, where people are better than what you see before you right now."

I'm afraid your example is not at all hyperbolic -- instead, such places and worse, are and have been common throughout the ages ...

(Agreeing with you btw)

Re: Leaving China

#84

Post by shanebellone »

askonomm wrote: post #17
tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

This hits home for me a lot. I've lived in Spain, Argentina and Finland, all in hoping to fill whatever gap I thought it would, whether that would be life quality, weather, culture or whatever. But after the honeymoon period, the cracks started to show at every place. I'm now back in my home country, Estonia, which I (now) think is the best for me - but that creeping feeling of something better being somewhere out th…

Interesting. Estonia was my top pick in the EU.

In retrospect, were you searching or escaping?

Re: Leaving China

#85

Post by carlmr »

jimbob45 wrote: post #11
ersiees wrote: post #3

Why do we call people expats and not rich migrants or something like that?

Expats expect to come home at some point in their lives. Emigrants (the word I think you were looking for) leave for good. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/97835/difference...

>Emigrants (the word I think you were looking for)

Emigrants leave and immigrants come. It's two sides of the same coin. You can't emigrate without immigrating. Except if you manage to become stateless and remain on international territory.

Migrants is just the term without the direction. Which is unnecessary if you're not talking about the country they leave or move to.

Re: Leaving China

#86

Post by tomohelix »

muyuu wrote: post #28
tomohelix wrote: post #4

What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful. The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be found. There will be a huge social disrupti…

India perhaps, in the long term, could challenge the US directly - but the idea that Vietnam or Thailand would openly challenge the USA in a hot conflict is laughable culture is not the reason these people are leaving China, but an open hostility towards foreigners during recent years that is creating a very difficult position for expats living there

Let say China and the US come into open conflict and everyone is forced to choose a side, which side do you think Vietnam will pick?

China and Vietnam share a long history and culture. They are also right next to each other and have the same government type. Vietnam has openly showed their desire to work with China at the cost of the US. They sent some top diplomats to China right after the US diplomats came to visit them. That is pretty clear to me which country they prefer more.

Investing in Vietnam is basically the same thing as investing in China in the past. It will end the same way, with a strengthened opponent in Asia.

Re: Leaving China

#88

Post by lmm »

amrocha wrote: post #62
ersiees wrote: post #3

Why do we call people expats and not rich migrants or something like that?

Because US and EU citizens think that "immigrant" is a dirty word for people from poor countries. To all the other people talking about intent to settle or not: read the post. The author lived in China for 20 years and built a family there. They're not an "expat" under any technical definition of the word.

> To all the other people talking about intent to settle or not: read the post. The author lived in China for 20 years and built a family there. They're not an "expat" under any technical definition of the word.

And yet he's leaving. He calls the US "home". So evidently he was an expat.

Re: Leaving China

#89

Post by rdevsrex »

chasil wrote: post #33
askonomm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hits home for me a lot. I've lived in Spain, Argentina and Finland, all in hoping to fill whatever gap I thought it would, whether that would be life quality, weather, culture or whatever. But after the honeymoon period, the cracks started to show at every place. I'm now back in my home country, Estonia, which I (now) think is the best for me - but that creeping feeling of something better being somewhere out th…

There is no place, and no time, where people are better than what you see before you right now. Sometimes, the political system is better. People? There is nothing new under the sun.

I don't agree. Yes in one sense people are all the same. But differences in each country really do matter. As do cultural differences.

I grew up in the US but I've lived in South Africa for nearly 10 years. I've also lived in Switzerland and Mexico.

So I've seen enough of a range of how people live to know there are better and worse conditions. Maybe there is no true perfect country or culture, but there are definitely tradeoffs.

You might love the culture and hate the government, or love the government but hate the culture.

Like I love how friendly South Africans are, but my God the government is so corrupt. I love how the Swiss government works, but Swiss people aren't known for being easy to make friends with. God forbid you flush the toilet after 10pm.

So depending on what you are optimizing for, some places really are better than others.

Re: Leaving China

#90

Post by thefounder »

Waterluvian wrote: post #23
tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

> pay that price for a great society in return You’re not just paying in your own freedoms. You’re paying in the freedoms of others, like the Muslims that the Chinese government have decided aren’t compatible with the “great society” that you seek.

There are worse places for muslims than China as far as human rights are concerned. I feel the whole muslim issue in China is just a pretext. Have we forgot about Saudi Arabia or whatever mess is left in Afghanistan?
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