Live data from Hacker News

Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

news.ycombinator.com

801–809 of 809 posts

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#801
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where will you be building these? I think in this case it makes sense to sell units, and also generate feedback about the product as early as possible So you're going to use end customers as your test base? That's pretty gutsy. Especially when they're shelling out $10K and ripping out their existing (and working ) HVAC system to do this. Don't use the car analogy here, there's no backup if it doesn't work. Unless you…

Definitely agree that a good customer experience is key here. We're not shipping half baked hardware to end customers. That's what engineering development (alpha build, design validation build, production validation build, home pilot) is for. After all that happens, then customers can an install (and one that's well designed and tested).

"We're not shipping half baked hardware to end customers. That's what engineering development (alpha build, design validation build, production validation build, home pilot) is for."

I can appreciate that. I am sure you will also agree a single part of a complex system can render it inoperable. When I consider the consequences, at 15° F (which is about the yearly low in my part of the US), of a failed part then I consider what that means to my wife and children and the value of the experimental but proven design becomes much less.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had incredibly atrocious work done by licensed individuals of all stripes. In one case they took out a mechanics lien on the house when I refused to pay for unfinished and shoddy work and then one of their workers assaulted my wife. - Horizontal exhaust run from a furnace that was 25x longer than specified by the manufacturer - Putting registers in very wrong places (like 2 in one room and 0 in another instead…

Geez, sorry you dealt with that. In my town, this would never pass inspection, which certainly costs something in taxes, permits, and labor cost, but I think it would be difficult to end up saddled with bad work.

All the contractors around here push really hard to do the work without permits. It takes at least twice as long to finish with permits since there needs to be an inspection after each step that will get covered up by something else (and since much work is done unpermitted, many contractors forget to do this and have to redo work).

I always pull permits these days because of stupid stuff contractors have done; the horizontal duct run that was way out of spec was found by an inspector and I had to call 4 HVAC contractors before finding one that would do a quote that included permits...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, from my perspective, the fact that it is large isn't the problem. The issues is that we can't seem to get anything done. Politicians --of all denominations-- stopped working for us and towards solid long term objectives for the benefit of society a long time ago, decades. Their focus is firmly aimed at winning elections and opposing the other side. We, the people, well, we don't really matter, all they want is…

I would recommend listening to the Ezra Klein show interview with one of the main authors of the NetZero Princeton report. It is not recklessly optimistic, but I was surprised to finish it and have a sense "hell, maybe we might actually pull this off". https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas... The title is a bit click-baity, so ignore that.

> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...

Their short (7 minutes) summary of findings is good. It might compel some to dig deeper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REDKd3wT220

Listening to the long interview now. They are hitting on points that I have been talking about for years. Points that earned me countless, and sometimes vicious, attacks here on HN and relentless down-voting. This is an audience that is supposed to be analytical. Sadly, I have discovered the hard way that the loud-mouths, the bullies, are nothing of the sort. As is always the case, the moderate thinking majorities tend to not get involved, and the bullies win.

The part you did not know is that I wrote a simulation model some five years ago to try and help me understand all of this. It would be fair to call it a Monte Carlo Simulation. It created millions of behavioral avatars with randomized patterns of electrical vehicle usage (driving, charging, etc.). It also distributed these across all six time zones in the US. It then calculated peak charging requirements per region and cranked out a range in the aggregate. The result was an estimate between 900 GW and 1400 GW.

I was not able to confirm this until last year, when someone asked Elon Musk about this and he said we need to more than double our power generation capacity. That's why I became so confident in my estimate.

I am also going through the entire research report. This will likely take a few weeks (I only have weekends available for something like this).

I did discover I am wrong about something I've been claiming.

I've been saying we need approximately 1200 GW of new power.

That's not correct.

We need 2400 GW.

Why?

Silly mistake on my part. I forgot that part of the objective is to replace our "dirty" power generators with clean energy. If the objective was to support electric vehicles, the answer is somewhere around 1200 GW. However, this report made me realize I had skipped over the obvious part: We want our entire power system to be clean.

This means we need 1200 GW of brand-new clean energy to replace the dirty power we have right now. And then, we need another 1200 GW to power electric cars. My guess is likely much more than that once we account for electric heat pumps and stoves in every home.

So, yeah, I was wrong. My estimate made the problem far simpler than what it actually is.

We have to rip-up our entire power generation infrastructure, replace it with a new one and then more than double it. All by 2050. Good luck.

I can't even imagine the degree of verbal violence I will be subjected to on HN when I say we need 2400 GW and the "true believers" blow a fuse.

Fantastic study. Thanks for posting it. Much to learn and think about. I am glad that I hear them talk about things a hundred years away as options rather than being all-in on getting there in 20 years or some of other seriously flawed claim.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes s/he is. Mitsubishi force you to use their Kumo Cloud controls, which are 1) expensive (a few kk) and 2) require cloud. Supposedly Mitsubishi is replacing Kumo with something else, but that just makes the problem worse.

you can get a converter to get Mitsu to work with any 24v AC controls PAC-US444CN-1, ive installed a few of them so the customer could use their existing Nest and Ecobee thermostats. I'm a former diamond certified Mitsubishi installer

spaceguillotine I'd love to hear about your experience as a former installer! Any chance for a DM?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#805

I love startups, but the value proposition is not here. I just had a heat pump installed and it was a much better price and higher efficiency. What is the benefit of direct to consumers is you are going to charge more? What makes your heat pumps better? Hepa filtering? Smart controls? They all have that. Is the market niche esthetics? They do look nice - maybe this company is trying to be the Apple of heat pumps? Cha…

Yeah and these can be bought on eBay already.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#806
post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear a lot of horror stories from the UK about this, that people pay upwards of £500 and still cold in their homes. There are a lot of cowboy installers going around but even those who are qualified can't be reached for aftercare/handoff etc. Fiddling with settings at 50p/kWh is not a great experience. On that note I think biopropane will be the solution for Europe.

> I hear a lot of horror stories from the UK about this, that people pay upwards of £500 £500 for what? Total cost for a month? A year? The monthly average of a full year of costs. The monthly average cost thing is common in NL; people often have no clue other than knowing the monthly average cost. And it's often estimated beforehand by the energy company. It's assumed to be correct. Anyway, people need to check the…

Why no? Biopropane is fully renewable from biomass but on the other hand people think heating with electricity is somehow cleaner than other methods. Well, electricity production in Europe is not very clean at the moment and not will be (and can't be) renewable-based unless wind and solar conditions change drastically. Large-scale geothermal production is a pipe dream within our lifetimes. So while most homes in Europe are already connected to a pipeline we are demolishing that and figuring out from scratch how to heat drafty homes with heat pumps. I'm just saying maybe, we shouldn't throw out 50+ years of boiler knowledge just like that.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#809

$14,000 is competitive with quotes I've seen for heatpumps. I've been quoted up to €18,000 for a small retrofit. I would have expected the cost of heatpumps to have fallen as adoption goes up, like solar, but instead the opposite seems to have happened and they're far more expensive now than five years ago. Any insights into why this is?

Labor is extremely expensive. The costs of heat pumps has fallen greatly. I put in a 12k mini split in my house last year which cost $850. (The tools to DIY cost around ~$150, but I've done 2 installs so far).

is it difficult to DIY?
Post reply on HN