Your install costs are super low. Is there some sort of innovation that would drastically reduce install costs? We just got quoted for a conventional heat pump install in Seattle 2/3 of the cost is installation. The unit costs like 6-8k but to get an installer to install its 18-22k. That’s with 5 quotes so I don’t think it’s abnormal. How do you plan to keep install costs so low at 6k
Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
321–330 of 809 posts
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#322"Preorder". "Shipping Winter 2024". "While we don't have any physical prototypes at the moment, we have the industrial design and also largely understand how this will be built." No. You have to build it before you can sell it.
I get where you're coming from. There's a lot of scope to this though, and not a lot of technical risk. I think in this case it makes sense to sell units, and also generate feedback about the product as early as possible. We're not selling fusion or self driving cars.
Where will you be building these?
I think in this case it makes sense to sell units, and also generate feedback about the product as early as possible
So you're going to use end customers as your test base? That's pretty gutsy. Especially when they're shelling out $10K and ripping out their existing (and working) HVAC system to do this. Don't use the car analogy here, there's no backup if it doesn't work.
Unless you predict 100% flawless execution and satisfaction on that aspect, you're going to get screwed. Your customers, more so. A few fucked up installations, or performance below expectations, and it's over.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#323> There’s a big push to end fossil fuel use in US homes by electrifying all end-uses If all end uses are electrified, where does that electricity come from if not fossil fuel in large part?
Yeah this is only necessary, not sufficient! What a dumb idea.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#324I saw a comment about demand response below.
You don't opt your residential hvac into demand response unless you want to freeze. Juice is not worth the squeeze.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#325Your install costs are super low. Is there some sort of innovation that would drastically reduce install costs? We just got quoted for a conventional heat pump install in Seattle 2/3 of the cost is installation. The unit costs like 6-8k but to get an installer to install its 18-22k. That’s with 5 quotes so I don’t think it’s abnormal. How do you plan to keep install costs so low at 6k
How much ductwork are you having upgraded, also any electrical panel upgrades? There can be extra scope that drives up install cost.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#326Some questions: What is the HEPA for? Is it on the fresh air intake or are you actually HEPA-filtering the recirculated air? If the latter, why not MERV 16? HEPA media is probably more expensive, and it definitely has much higher pressure loss, and there is no actual need for it outside of healthcare. How are you humidifying? Can you control the coil temperature in cooling mode and thus control the sensible/latent co…
I would like a standard air filter to be used. a lot of individuals don't require HEPA, but I do. I would like to be able to source my own filters from anywhere, and put them in. just like my current furnace. let people pick their level of air filtration they are comfortable with
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
They're viable in Maine too. Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback https://wapo.st/3YK0hbC From an (opinionated) Youtube channel out of the midwest (Chicago area which isn't known for being warm) - Why Heat Pumps are Immensely Important Right Now https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI
I'm not questioning if they are viable, I'm questioning the blanket claims and the direct comparison. What kind of furnace? Natural gas? Oil? A heat pump in Maine is not going to be 3-5x more cost effective than a natural gas furnace in Maine. In fact, it's currently more expensive than natural gas, and at parity with oil furnaces. https://www.maine.gov/energy/heating-fuel-prices
https://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-home/heating-cost-compari...
And you can update the values there. There are some approaches that are even more cost effective.
I will also note on the url that you provided:
> Heat Pump Water Heater (HPWH) and Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP): Final fuel prices (i.e., far right column) reflect the increased efficiency of HPWHs and ASHPs. According to Efficiency Maine Trust and when compared to electric resistance heating, HPWHs are 2.98 times more efficient and ASHPs are 2.93 times more efficient. To obtain a theoretical and relative fuel price per unit, divide the price per kWh by 2.98 or 2.93 depending on your technology (e.g., $0.2099 for an ASHP is like paying $0.0716 for electric resistance heating).
The numbers in the heating cost comparison roughly match the ones that you have. A natural gas furnace can be as cost effective. The point with the heat pump in part isn't the cost effective nature for the residential user - even if in parity, but that in addition to being similarly priced it is more environmentally sound to use a heat pump than to burn hydrocarbons for heat.
The comparison that we're making above is also natural gas vs heat pump. When you get the rural locations, natural gas isn't always an option and so then you need to change to the propane and heating oil versions.
From the WaPo article:
> “Oh, hell no,” Casagranda said, when asked recently if she missed her propane furnace. As part of the experiment, the agency promised residents they could have their fossil-fuel-burning systems back if they didn’t like the results. So far, none of the homeowners have wanted to go back, according to agency officials, and Casagranda said she is more than satisfied.
> ...
> But oil’s market share is falling. Whereas 74 percent of the state’s homes relied on oil to keep warm in the winter of 2010, according to the Census Bureau’s American Community Survey, that figure had fallen to 60 percent by 2021.
> ...
> Despite the bitter cold, a drive up U.S. Route 1 reveals a quiet transformation underway with major implications for climate change. Mainers who have heated their homes, diners, libraries and churches with oil and propane for decades are turning to an alternative source of warmth.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#328I live in Buffalo NY, and from the recent record-breaking snowstorms, I've concluded that the push for electrification of home appliances may not be the best solution. Although gas furnaces still require electricity, they can operate for a more extended period on a generator, and gas stoves are a crucial backup option for staying warm during a power outage. Until our electricity grid becomes more reliable, I would he…
> gas stoves are a crucial backup option for staying warm during a power outage
Isn't CO (and other combustion byproducts) an issue? When cooking a meal the duration is short enough to not matter much, but at extended durations to provide heat I would think this is a bad idea, unless you monitor air quality enough to run a vented range hood at the optimization point between unhealthy and wasting most of the heat you're generating.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#329Can you have a system, such as a "Solyndra-type-rod"(s) which placed down a deep well and a solar pump to flow water intor a unit that sits within the ground-well water level and use that as a coolant supply and the solar to provide a small amount of elec to a downward pump to push water through the closed system, and then have a solar powered UV light strip to kill bacteria on the upward flow... then pipe that to a rooftop black-ulta-paint pased piping module to allow solar heating for the water.... in addition to your system?
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#330I installed my own Heat Pump (Pioneer) setup in my RV. I evacuated my system using a vacuum pump myself, total cost was around 3k. Got Home Assistant working through a hacked Local Tuya script.
This unit is 22 SEER.
+1 for a LOCAL API that doesn't require the cloud and +1 for a self install. I can buy two whole higher efficiency Pioneer units for your $6k install fee