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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#521

Post by snark42 »

hcrisp wrote: post #356
dmarlow wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for…

I agree, in fact a couple things in the pitch don't add up. > ... where the 80M single family homes in the US replace their furnaces with heat pumps. Where did they get this statistic? I already have a heat pump and know many that do too. Are we included in this 80M estimate? What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? They aren't going to replace their furnac…

> What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold?

This heat pump is supposed to work to -15F and includes back-up resistive heat. Theoretically it can replace a heater and air conditioner anywhere. I know people north of Chicago that use a similar heat pump and resistive backup system and it's been fine to -30F keeping the house at 69F.

> I don't know the contractors they are talking about, but I literally had to say the words "heat pump" to my local Carrier installer and they did all the rest.

There's definitely a bias against them when natural gas is available. Until probably the past 3-4 years very few HVAC contractors in the midwest were familiar with heat pumps or had bad experiences 5-15 years back and recommended against them as it's "too cold" for them to work here.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#522

Post by adanto6840 »

criddell wrote: post #435
adanto6840 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you may have had a whole-home energy audit done already -- including a blower door test? If not, I'd highly recommend it; I paid ~$500 for one a few years back which included thermal imaging, blower door tests, airflow measurements & calcs, current/draw measurements for all energy-consuming devices, thermal load calcs, etc. You may find better pricing even -- ours included a detached structure/office, and…

Thanks for the Bosch recommendation. Your system is much larger than ours, but you likely have a lot more square footage (we are ~2100 sq ft). I don’t recall the exact number, but I think we are 2.5 or 3.5 ton. Our system is old enough that it’s just time to replace. It’s the one the builder installed 14 or 15 years ago and it’s fairly low end. What you’ve accomplished in your home is exactly what my installer tells…

I'd probably suggest checking out Reddit (r/hvac for pros, and r/hvacadvice for homeowners) -- you'll generally get really good advice, often from professionals, if you provide good inputs/context.

If you have 2+ floors, you probably need (or have) zones, and it may be worth paying a professional to engineer a solution that meet your requirements. I recall finding some small businesses online that do exactly this for a nominal fee (You might also consider looking for residential HVAC companies that also do commercial refrigeration; the conceptual physics for commercial refrigeration aren't much different from residential HVAC, just specialized refrigerants & components that are tailored to those use-cases (ie labs often require extra-cold freezers, etc).

FWIW, my gut is you'd be happy with most variable-speed offerings, if sized appropriately. Low humidity here makes it easier, but I'm sure you can do what you want, but it may not be cheap.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#523

Post by vl »

cmui wrote: post #502
vl wrote: post #497

Looks like first direct-to-consumer ad of this kind on HN! It's interesting how much HN community goodwill can be stretched to bend for Y Combinator.

What do you think of the product?

I generally like the product as described, but definitely there are tricky challenges for you, and no-product launch at HN is perhaps a bit premature. (You can't do a launch like this on HN, you need to hype it up in the media and then to it a-la Tesla).

As specifically for the product:

All-electric is no-go in many locations. I live in the (outside) Seattle suburb, electricity goes out few times in the winter. In this case I can still heat from the gas running controls from the generator. I.e. back-up furnace is an important add-on.

It's unclear what is your production strategy: if you repackage existing devices with better software and integrations, then it's a viable option since repairs can be reasonably done (i.e. I had control board on the AC unit replaced in a day and failed water heater replaced in 3 days). If you produce new hardware, then it's hard to justify: when it fails in the winter, what exactly is the repair plan?

In addition to that ducted heat pump with smart controls is not exactly a new concept, I can buy one right now. It looks like yours is going to be integrated with better sensors, humidifier and ERV? Are they part of the system? Are they separate install?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#524

Post by mbreese »

joelfried wrote: post #243
cmui wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This behavior is how current variable speed heat pumps operate with Ecobee and Nest. You leave efficiency on the table, but I get it provides some future proofing assurance for homeowners. Definitely something we can integrate into the board.

> I get it provides some future proofing assurance I don't think you're getting it, and a lot of us around here want you to. If I were actively researching heat pumps (a thing most homeowners do before dropping 4-5 figures on ANY hardware), if you are locking me into your ecosystem -- or even have the appearance of locking me into your ecosystem -- your product is not getting onto any short list from me or likely any…

This all especially true given the expected time frame a heat pump is supposed to have. No one wants to spend $14,000 for a paper weight. Whether that’s because the software disappears, spare parts can’t be found, or it’s impossible to service. Any of the above are real risks that need to be considered seriously and addressed. HVAC can also become an issue when trying to sell a house, so it’s not like trying to sell to traditional early adopters. The majority of this market is going to be very conservative.

I’d honestly just try to market to heat pump believers first who actively are looking for what they are selling. First, it’s an easier sales pitch. Second, they will be more forgiving of growing pains. Go through the 1-3 years trying to get the manufacturing, maintenance, and installation locked in before trying to sell in bulk to a larger market.

As it is, it’s just too risky for many to buy. (And for my house, it would be impossible to install).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#525

Post by ajross »

z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

FWIW: the "cloud based" part is the flexible bit, it's the fixed equipment that you're stuck with for two decades. I see the problem as exactly the opposite: I could in principle switch from a Carrier to a Lennox to a Nest to an EcoBee in probably 10 minutes, but I can't, because all the equipment manufacturers are shipping their own garbage with closed protocols.

So I had to fight with a contractor to get them to install our fancy new heat pump in "traditional dumb thermostat" mode, and then handed them the Nest box (which doesn't speak Carrier-ese) and put it in the contract that it had to work. It took them several hours extra to do things the "portable" way. They were absolutely not prepared even though the manufacturer claims this works just fine.

So... I think there's absolutely a spot in the market for an Electric Air that can make this work cleanly. The existing HVAC players are really, really bad at this.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#526

Post by elif »

For comparison on pricing, their lowest tier unit is 24kbtu and costs $10k.

I bought an LG split with 4 ceiling-mounted heat exchangers, one of them 18K BTU, and 3 of them 9K BTU, all of the plumbing and distribution box to connect them, and the outside 48K BTU exchanger, and the total shipped price including sales tax was $7,200.

The advantage of having 4 independent indoor units is the key, as you don't have to heat the entire house 24/7 and can save energy by only heating/cooling the appropriate zones. I don't see even any option or pricing for them to use 4 indoor units on their website.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#527

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

hedora wrote: post #450
elil17 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windchill doesn't effect, and you can handle small dips below -15 F (like for a couple hours at night) because the house has some thermal mass. However, Duluth, MN is right at the edge of being too cold for this heat pump (99th percentile cold temperature in the coldest month is -15.16 F). If I was in Duluth and was considering a heat pump, I'd want to make sure I had an electric furnace or some space heaters as a ba…

Even in coastal California, most ducted heat pumps have a built in electric or gas furnace. I imagine anything sold in areas where it actually gets cold will as well.

Here at 7000' near Santa Fe, I know dozens of homes, many new construction, that are heat pump only to all effects and purposes (i.e. they may also have fireplaces but these are not part of the normal heating systems nor part of any plan for the 0F-5F winter nights we can get.

Heat pumps can handle things by themselves down to around -10F to -15F, if correctly sized and installed.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#528

Post by cmui »

Eumenes wrote: post #248

i'm glad to have a wood stove, electrical rates keep rising, and wood is pretty consistent (plus I source some on my own, tons of free firewood if you know where to look) ... unfortuantely it doesnt solve my hot water problem, but one 200 gallon tank of oil lasts me over 1.5 years

Have you looked at the relative cost of wood + fuel oil vs a heat pump. I think you'd be surprised how quickly it pays off.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#529

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

nfriedly wrote: post #339
Nition wrote: post #242

It's strange seeing this post describe heat pumps as if they're a new thing, and everyone commenting as if they are. I live in New Zealand and heat pumps have been standard in new builds for just about 20 years now. They're great. If you want to add one to your home you can call up various companies to do it for reasonable prices (not sure how this stacks up against US prices, but I recently had a small 2.5kW cool/3.…

In the US, heat pumps are not unheard of, but they are fairly rare. (Not counting air conditioning, which no one here thinks of as a "heat pump" even tough it essentially is.) Trying to get a HVAC company to install a heat pump can be very difficult and/or expensive in may parts of the US.

More or less every HVAC contractor in the Santa Fe/ABQ area pushed heat pumps on us when we wanted a solution for our home 3 years ago. That doesn't mean it's not hard in some places, but we're a (very) small population low density state, so if you can get it done here ...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#530

Post by tguvot »

sokoloff wrote: post #503
criddell wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our walls are good but our windows are a weak point. During summer, the night temperature drops to the low 90’s here. It’s A/C all day, every day, for at least 3 months. Any idea why the HVAC guy and just about every source online insists that A/C can only give you a temperature delta of 20F? I know it can’t be true, but that claim is everywhere.

There's a lot of poor engineering fundamentals among some HVAC salespeople and some websites as well as some sloppy writing. The delta-T that is correctly cited as being "around a max of 20°F" is the delta in temperature across the evaporator (IOW between the return duct and the supply duct [aka the goes-inta and the goes-outta]). It's not the delta-T between the outside air and inside air . With good enough insulati…

>The delta-T that is correctly cited as being "around a max of 20°F" is the delta in temperature across the evaporator (IOW between the return duct and the supply duct [aka the goes-inta and the goes-outta]).

well said. i have temp sensor on supply and return and I graph them and delta, to make sure that hvac works within proper parameters. otherwise during heat waves you start thinking that hvac maybe out of shape

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