It's strange seeing this post describe heat pumps as if they're a new thing, and everyone commenting as if they are. I live in New Zealand and heat pumps have been standard in new builds for just about 20 years now. They're great. If you want to add one to your home you can call up various companies to do it for reasonable prices (not sure how this stacks up against US prices, but I recently had a small 2.5kW cool/3.…
In the US, heat pumps are not unheard of, but they are fairly rare. (Not counting air conditioning, which no one here thinks of as a "heat pump" even tough it essentially is.) Trying to get a HVAC company to install a heat pump can be very difficult and/or expensive in may parts of the US.
Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#502Looks like first direct-to-consumer ad of this kind on HN! It's interesting how much HN community goodwill can be stretched to bend for Y Combinator.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#503Earlier quoted context omitted.
actually i'll advise you to take a look at temperature of your walls. both inside and outside. they have a bunch of thermal mass. during the summer they effectively heat the air inside the house. unless you manage to cool walls somewhat (lets say during night), hvac will have to really fight to keep temperature down. I live in bay area and I installed whole house fan which is typically runs through the night at summe…
Our walls are good but our windows are a weak point. During summer, the night temperature drops to the low 90’s here. It’s A/C all day, every day, for at least 3 months. Any idea why the HVAC guy and just about every source online insists that A/C can only give you a temperature delta of 20F? I know it can’t be true, but that claim is everywhere.
The delta-T that is correctly cited as being "around a max of 20°F" is the delta in temperature across the evaporator (IOW between the return duct and the supply duct [aka the goes-inta and the goes-outta]). It's not the delta-T between the outside air and inside air.
With good enough insulation and/or enough cooling, you can get whatever delta-T you want as is obviously the case with refrigerators and freezers.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#504Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody will build a heat-pump system with an on/off control system like that because the performance will be awful. Certainly not an air-to-water system.
It already exists. Check out Mr. Cool Universal and Gree Flexx. Heat pumps that work with a normal thermostat exist. Most of the info about this stuff online is trash because HVAC is the most toxic online community compared to any other contracting profession. One of the reasons highly efficient mini splits haven’t took off in the USA- the self proclaimed experts want to charge $2000 to drill a hole and charge a line…
Thus the bill for the small job is outrageously high.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#505Generally I hard pass on any device that does not have at least some basic manual controls itegrated into the unit itself (or an offline dedicated controller perhaps that wires to it). A phone app is great for controlling things away from home or setting up more advanced features like schedules and alarms but especially for a home appliance that is meant to last a long time (with installation costs) the last thing I want is reliance on a mobile device.
My ideal version of this in order of most important to least important:
1. Oldschool hardware thermostat / control knob (rotary knobs are cool and very reliable long term!) built into the thermostat itself or a port on the unit itself to wire up one of these also sold by the same company. If the unit requires a bit of intelligence to run the heat pump properly from a simple thermostat and control knob then that would be needed to be integrated into the firmware itself of the unit (or the hardware thermostat / knob).
2. Modern support for WiFi or Ethernet and fancy features through an app that communicates directly with the unit while on the home network or through the Cloud while away (Cloud could have additional features). API access is always cool for the nerds + easy GUI with visual programmable features for the power users that are not programmers.
3. Included instructions that any competent electrician can follow if any additional electrical wiring is needed (say if wires need to be a thicker guage or there needs to be more than 2 or if certain aftermarket thermostats need special wiring)
4. Easily replaceable filter by the end user + physical reset button built into the unit itself (in case some kind of protection is tripped). And ideally also a few easily user accessible parts (say like replacing a fuse or relay). The more standardized parts the better (such as filter sizes).
5. Guarantee certain number of years of updates (and phone version compatiblities) and also try to guarantee backwards compatiblity (in some way) with older devices (to some extent).
6. When the app / software finally does cease to be updated release either source code or some way for third parties to continue work customizing / updating the system for old or newer devices or niche systems.
7. Dedicated smart device or remote made specifically to work with this that provides all of the functions the phone app does but in a very simple to use, reliable way. This could be a stripped down android device (could be a very cheap model) or something more like an oldschool remote control with physical buttons and a simple black and white tiny OLED.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#506Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not questioning if they are viable, I'm questioning the blanket claims and the direct comparison. What kind of furnace? Natural gas? Oil? A heat pump in Maine is not going to be 3-5x more cost effective than a natural gas furnace in Maine. In fact, it's currently more expensive than natural gas, and at parity with oil furnaces. https://www.maine.gov/energy/heating-fuel-prices
https://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-home/heating-cost-compari... And you can update the values there. There are some approaches that are even more cost effective. I will also note on the url that you provided: > Heat Pump Water Heater (HPWH) and Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP): Final fuel prices (i.e., far right column) reflect the increased efficiency of HPWHs and ASHPs. According to Efficiency Maine Trust and when compa…
Air source heat pumps are very popular here. We have two. They are great technology, but they are not a panacea. The majority of the electricity we generate comes from natural gas in New England because we don't have access to amazing renewables like is available in California. Also, they are a point heating source, so many folks who retrofit end up buying 3-4 of them to get full coverage in old poorly insulated homes. If the product above is $12k, we're getting into $36k-$48k which is almost double the cost of installing a ground source heat pump which is vastly more efficient during the winter compared to an air source.
This further proves my point: the startup above is clearly looking at this problem from a California context. They should get that under control immediately because the realities in the rest of the country will be shocking to them once they have to take customer calls outside their mediterranean climate.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#507Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't want an over-sized system. They short cycle. An over-sized system can quickly cool to the thermostat setting, but leave the latent heat in the water vapor in the air. So you experience the "feels like" temperature...it's not the heat, as they say. A properly sized system runs long enough to condense water vapor and with it remove the latent heat from the air.
The short cycle argument only really applies to older and low end systems that are not variable speed. A variable speed system integrated with a humidifier should be able to slowly bring the temperature down, making sure that the cooling does not get ahead of the dehumidifying. I want an “oversized” system that can do > 20F temperature drops. I know they exist because a lot of commercial spaces have them.
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#508Sou these heat pumps are for ducted systems... What about homes that have water wall radiators or underfloor heading? Are these systems considered air to water heat pumps?
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#509Love what you're trying to do. I recently moved most of the way off oil-based hydronic baseboard heating in my 1800's New England farmhouse through installing 3 ductless mini-splits with Mitsubishi Hyper Heat condensors. Just to help with your user research, my biggest decision points: 1. Cold weather operation. I get you're saying the units are good down to -15f, but there's nothing like the fact that I can talk to…
As long as they heat well (capacity-wise) at those temps, I wouldn't really care if the CoP was 1.5-ish (which it likely will be). You'll still get plenty of 3.5-5.0 CoP time in the (much, much longer) shoulder seasons that getting 3-5 days of sub-2.0 isn't that big of a deal [again, provided the capacity is there].
Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners
#510Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, heat pumps are not unheard of, but they are fairly rare. (Not counting air conditioning, which no one here thinks of as a "heat pump" even tough it essentially is.) Trying to get a HVAC company to install a heat pump can be very difficult and/or expensive in may parts of the US.
Isn't AC just a heat pump that pumps heat to outside, and a heater if you install it reversely?
It's kind of bonkers that we so frequently install air conditioners but not the tiny bit of extra parts to make it into a proper heat pump. I hope this will change in the near future.