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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#241

Post by thaeli »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #169
sokoloff wrote: post #59

I tried like hell to install an air-to-water heat pump instead of a replacement gas boiler and it didn't make anything close to economic sense to do so. What do I want from a heat-pump: I want it to work with a contact-closure (TT/XX) input to call for heat/cooling. Sure, if you have a fancy thermostat that works better, I'm going to read the brochure, but I'm not buying it if I find out it won't work with just a dry…

Nobody will build a heat-pump system with an on/off control system like that because the performance will be awful. Certainly not an air-to-water system.

As a backup option, the incumbents already make this. Carrier Infinity is a good example. Proprietary protocol (RS-485 based, so it can run over existing thermostat wiring) between the smart thermostat and the furnace, and between the furnace and outside condenser unit. Even with all these smarts, there is still a fallback mode provided with a regular old dry-contacts control wires that can hook to any standard thermostat. Yeah, the system won't operate at peak performance, but it will operate, and that's very important when every HVAC tech carries a standard thermostat with them, or even uses basic jumper wires, in an emergency until they can return with correct parts.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#242

Post by Nition »

It's strange seeing this post describe heat pumps as if they're a new thing, and everyone commenting as if they are.

I live in New Zealand and heat pumps have been standard in new builds for just about 20 years now. They're great. If you want to add one to your home you can call up various companies to do it for reasonable prices (not sure how this stacks up against US prices, but I recently had a small 2.5kW cool/3.2kW heat mini split heat pump installed in my office room for $1,200USD including labour). It helps that we have relatively mild seasons, with it getting just a little too cold in winter and a little too hot in summer - pretty much the ideal environment for a heat pump.

I have never seen a residential home in NZ with a furnace or a pure air conditioner (that can't also heat). The standard installed system before heat pumps was a wood fire or sometimes gas heaters. In summer you just put up with being hot.

Re smart thermostats, I've been in many homes with heat pumps and never seen one. Everyone just uses the controls in the heat pump remote. They all have the option to cool to a certain temp, heat to a certain temp, stay at a certain temp, and set a start/stop time. Basic but generally good enough.

Re ducted systems, my experience is they never seem quite as efficient or effective as just installing two totally separate mini split systems. Which is also usually cheaper and has the added bonus that you can only run one if you're not in the other part of the house.

Looking at your wall unit, it looks really nice, but can that front face tilt to blow air either up or down?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#243

Post by joelfried »

cmui wrote: post #100
sokoloff wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's totally fair and reasonable. I still will demand that it be able to function in a bang-bang mode using dry contacts, especially from a new entrant to the market, because there's a fair risk that the unit will be in my house longer than your company is in business.

This behavior is how current variable speed heat pumps operate with Ecobee and Nest. You leave efficiency on the table, but I get it provides some future proofing assurance for homeowners. Definitely something we can integrate into the board.

> I get it provides some future proofing assurance

I don't think you're getting it, and a lot of us around here want you to. If I were actively researching heat pumps (a thing most homeowners do before dropping 4-5 figures on ANY hardware), if you are locking me into your ecosystem -- or even have the appearance of locking me into your ecosystem -- your product is not getting onto any short list from me or likely anyone else around here.

All of us -- every tech person who has ever gotten into home automation in a real way -- has thrown out some hardware rendered useless by a company. We've already seen this play out. You're an unknown and so are the riskiest kind of company to buy into.

You need to get this -- deeply -- if you want to sell to this market. The pull quote above makes me want to run for the hills.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#244

Post by WaitWaitWha »

Please consider on-boarding to Home Assistant.

Avoid proprietary protocols to communicate between sub-systems as much as possible.

The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet.

Do not require internet connectivity, a hub, or some intermediary solution if a third party system (such as Home Assistant) wants to communicate to the system.

My biggest fear is attempt to lock me into an ecosystem that charges me a monthly fee to just exist, while selling data about me. No promise will make this fear go away, as consumers mistreated many many times in the past. Show it through your open design.

Good luck.

> What issues have you had with your existing heat and cooling, and do you have any interesting stories around a heat pump install or use? I would love to hear your ideas, experiences, and feedback on any and all of the above!

Fan motor on compressor broken, company insist everything needs changed. Another similar incident was with a capacitor. Such rip-offs create a disdain in consumer.

In some very cold nights, the heat pump fails to keep the heat and emergency/aux heat kicks in.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#245

Post by kayson »

mdeeks wrote: post #93
kayson wrote: post #64

Ducted systems are horribly inefficient. Why heat/cool the entire house if you're only in one room? We paid $11k to have a 4-unit 42kbtu mini-split system installed in our condo. We love it. We turn the two units on in the living areas during the day, and just the two units in the bedroom at night. Each unit comes with its own remote and can be programmed individually. No need for an app-enabled/iot multi-zone thermo…

My main problem with mini-splits is that they are just ugly. I can't get past it. Neither can my wife nor others I've talked to. My engineer brain loves the idea, but I just don't want them on my walls nor do I want five different remotes laying around. I suspect thats a problem for many others too.

My wife (who invested heavily in the aesthetics and interior design of our home) shared the same concern. We decided to do it anyways, and though they're certainly a little ugly, they blend in and just sort of go away. It helps that they're fairly close to the ceiling.

The remotes aren't lying around. They all have wall mounts that we placed near the light switches and ceiling fan remotes. With the units being programmed, though, you don't often have to mess around with them anyways. Unless you're the sort who likes fiddling with the temperature and fan speed.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#246

Post by notJim »

s_tec wrote: post #128
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? There are variable speed furnaces that can be controlled via a normal thermostat and a 4-wire thermostat setup. Like you said, though, there's no open standard so that can be an issue, but it's standard wiring. https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ (halfway down - "Communicating HVAC System") https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... (deeper dive into Communicating vs Non-Commun…

Well, that just makes it worse! OP strongly implies that there is no good variable-speed solution, but if the industry already has an assortment of products, what exactly are they even selling?!

I think you're misreading the OP slightly. There's no cross-compatible system for variable equipment, which is why the OP says you can't use variable speed equipment with Nest. Nest is basically a really fancy switch only. To use variable speed equipment, you have to use your manufacturer's proprietary system. I'm not positive this is right, but I'm pretty sure it's backed up by https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm...

So basically, the premise of this product is that the proprietary system they design will be nicer than the proprietary systems HVAC manufacturer's design. That's probably true, but as an owner of a Carrier proprietary system, it's totally fine.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#247

Post by cmui »

turtlebits wrote: post #91
cmui wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

If you want to control air quality, you do this with a separate fresh air intake, not with a ducted furnace. Many older homes have furnaces taking air from sub-optimal spaces such as garages or crawl spaces.

Great point. You don't source from the same spot you source combustion air - you run a separate fresh air intake. This system has HEPA, fresh air intake and humidity control packaged/integrated together well. The fresh air wouldn't come from a garage or crawl space, but from the outdoors via a dedicated (small) duct.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#248

Post by Eumenes »

i'm glad to have a wood stove, electrical rates keep rising, and wood is pretty consistent (plus I source some on my own, tons of free firewood if you know where to look) ... unfortuantely it doesnt solve my hot water problem, but one 200 gallon tank of oil lasts me over 1.5 years

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#249

Post by oceanplexian »

tony_cannistra wrote: post #9
neilalexander wrote: post #3

This is interesting but many systems like it fall at the first hurdle in countries like Britain where forced air is not the norm. How are products like this supposed to work in a house that is currently optimised for radiators and combi-boilers and with no existing air ducts?

not OP. My understanding is that situations like these really require installation of the (IMO, ugly) wall units ("mini-splits"). Current air-source heat pumps can't produce hot water at temperatures necessary to drive radiators.

They don’t have to be ugly! You can get mini splits in a cassette format that just looks like an air vent.

I’m not against ducted systems or anything (Most houses in the US have them). But the laws of physics pretty much guarantee that a mini split will always be more efficient. Air ducts are harder to insulate and not that good at moving heat energy compared to sending refrigerant right to where you need it.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#250

Post by whafro »

SamBam wrote: post #206
s_tec wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal wiring is terrible, though, since it only supports turning the equipment on & off. If you have a variable-speed fan and variable-speed pumps, it would be nice for the thermostat to throttle those based on the load, but it can't. If this company has a solution for variable-speed equipment, the best thing they can do is publish an open standard. Suppose the thermostat talks to the equipment over CAN bus, for ins…

Mitsubishi heat pumps, and most others I assume, have local thermostats that communicate by remote (I assume radio waves), but do not require the cloud. This is a fine solution, as stable as wires but not tied to the cloud.

Unfortunately, they (or at least mine) communicate by IR, which is not as stable as wires – two of my rooms have very intermittent response to my IR pucks.
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