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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#431

Post by amluto »

phasetransition wrote: post #382
amluto wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem at all worthy of anything proprietary, though -- a simple RS-485 or 10BASE-T1L protocol and a page of docs would do the trick. And if you build this, you can also sell the same hardware plus a BacNET or MODBUS gateway for a bunch of money to the commercial building management types :) Or you could support existing commercial 0-10V thermostats.

Upvoted, BACnet already exists as an ISO standard: https://www.iso.org/standard/37298.html https://bacnetinternational.org/ The example application in the Ethernet Alliance one-pager on single pair Ethernet is HVAC: https://ethernetalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EA_T...

FWIW, if this were my startup, I would probably use 10BASE-T1L. The programming model is simple, and cloud or other “smart” integration is natural if the system already uses IP. For that matter, one ought to be able to support wired 10BASE-T1L and wireless Matter/Thread thermostats without much duplicate effort.

This could be prototyped on a BeaglePlay :)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#432

Post by cmui »

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #244

Please consider on-boarding to Home Assistant. Avoid proprietary protocols to communicate between sub-systems as much as possible. The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet. Do not require internet connectivity, a hub, or some intermediary solution if a third party system (such as Home Assistant) wants to communicate to the system. My biggest fe…

I hear your concerns! Just want to reiterate (since this is one of the top comments) no internet connectivity is required to operate the system. We will have integrations that also allow you to change the setpoint with your home system of choice. We're not interested in holding people hostage, we want to make the best way to heat and cool your home, and make it easy to get. If you're willing to turn on wifi, you can ingest demand response, weather and rate plan signals to optimize energy, and remotely operate the system.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#433

Post by yurishimo »

adventured wrote: post #391
dmarlow wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for…

> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out A single digit percentage of homes globally are using heat pumps, most of the world does not have it figured out. That's specifically why Electric Air exists, they're chasing what is going to be a gigantic market (if it were already such a figured out market they couldn't get funding without a revolutionary 10x approach, YC would have little interest).

Europe as a whole has been utilizing heat pumps for residential heavily over the past decade. With global temperatures rising, heat pump installs in OECD countries are skyrocketing as the climate becomes uncomfortable for larger and larger groups of people.

In the Netherlands, I can purchase a minisplit with installation for under €4k. It could get cheaper if I wanted something less powerful.

While your point about "single digit percentage[s]" is accurate, it's not helpful when discussing the merits of this product, or the wider industry as a whole in most of western world.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#434

Post by paxys »

dawnerd wrote: post #22
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

Disagree. There are a lot of advantages in being able to coordinate heating/cooling and general home electricity use based on stuff like weather forecasts, your electric company's rate tiers (including working around peak hours), when you are home or about to come home etc. Of course there should be a fallback mode where the system can work 100% offline, but being connected is definitely worth it.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#435

Post by criddell »

adanto6840 wrote: post #260
criddell wrote: post #146

My HVAC is 14 years old so we’re actually planning on replacing it sometime in the next 24 months. I’ve talked to a couple of HVAC companies already because I want more cooling power. When it’s above 100F (which it is for 3+ months of the year) my current system struggles to hold 80F. If we use the oven on a hot day, we may not get the temperature back down for days. Our winters are relatively mild (we don’t get much…

Sounds like you may have had a whole-home energy audit done already -- including a blower door test? If not, I'd highly recommend it; I paid ~$500 for one a few years back which included thermal imaging, blower door tests, airflow measurements & calcs, current/draw measurements for all energy-consuming devices, thermal load calcs, etc. You may find better pricing even -- ours included a detached structure/office, and…

Thanks for the Bosch recommendation. Your system is much larger than ours, but you likely have a lot more square footage (we are ~2100 sq ft). I don’t recall the exact number, but I think we are 2.5 or 3.5 ton.

Our system is old enough that it’s just time to replace. It’s the one the builder installed 14 or 15 years ago and it’s fairly low end.

What you’ve accomplished in your home is exactly what my installer tells me they can’t do. He told me no matter how large of a system I buy, the system will never be able to pul the indoor temperature down more than about 20F (internet searches for “max ac cooling” seem to back that up). He says a bigger system will get me down to the 20F floor faster, but that’s it.

I don’t believe it though because of stories like yours and because commercial spaces around here are very cold on hot days.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#436

Post by hd95489 »

cmui wrote: post #210
masterj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The software is certainly a concern, but I would also heavily emphasize the ability to get spare parts and service quickly. If your heat goes out in the middle of winter you don't want to wait weeks for spare parts, or be unable to get them at all if the company goes out of business.

Yes, making spare parts and service work is super important. We'll likely set up regional distribution points for spare parts so anything critical can be easily sent next day.

How would you ensure that spares are available in the event a model is discontinued or the company shuts down? It’s likely there will be few parts or trained techs in that case.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#437

Post by startupsfail »

cmui wrote: post #205
startupsfail wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Europe market is ready for this. Considering how unstable the residential electrical and internet grid is in the US (instead of being dug in, into the ground all the cables are hanging between the trees and there are constant failures), relying on that AND on the cloud for an essential service is a no-go.

A common misconception is that you can use your forced air furnace when the power is out - you can't because the blower relies on electricity to move air around. Your point on the cloud service is a good one, which is why cloud services are value-add but unnecessary for core system functionality, ie your system works if there's no internet.

In California power outages are very frequent (PG&E is now cutting off the residential power upfront, to avoid fires and associated liability).

I’ve experienced 4-5 outages last year, a couple were local, a couple were widespread. One lasted 2 days.

Fortunately I do have a small 3.2kWh battery backup power, so I can keep the refrigerator from defrosting. I do think that this is sufficient to power the air furnace as well, but I haven’t tried.

The residential internet outages also are pretty frequent, but we don’t notice these as much as power outages.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#438

Post by burntsushi »

aintgonnatakeit wrote: post #203
epanchin wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you tied to the app?

Yes s/he is. Mitsubishi force you to use their Kumo Cloud controls, which are 1) expensive (a few kk) and 2) require cloud. Supposedly Mitsubishi is replacing Kumo with something else, but that just makes the problem worse.

Wat. First of all, I have Kumo Cloud and it did not cost thousands of dollars. It was a few hundred for the adapter, and then I paid an HVAC tech to install it. That's it.

Second of all, you aren't forced to use Kumo Cloud. Even though I have it, I still have a remote that operates the Split. No network or cloud required.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#439

Post by triceratops »

cosmosisjones wrote: post #85
cmui wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

so what about places like Duluth, MN where it can be -20F ambient, then -40F to -50F with a windchill for several weeks of the year?

Not every product is for everyone.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#440

Post by seiferteric »

daredoes wrote: post #76
cmui wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone? If that's available, this would be my top choice as I'm actively shopping for all-electric heat pumps

IMO I would prefer a Bluetooth thermostat that once paired, you don't have to login again. One thing that really annoys me about home "smart" devices is arbitrarily being logged out and having to remember passwords etc. and I don't see a reason I need to be "logged in" to control my thermostat. Also I don't want it to stop working when your servers are down... (had this happen the other day with my garage door opener sigh...) If you want internet connectivity, it should connect to some hub to bridge the Bluetooth to the web account.
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