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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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311–320 of 809 posts

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#311
post #57
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will not buy this without a fully unlocked everything. This company is going to wait a few years and then charge you a shit ton for subscription to keep using your device. No thanks, and honestly whoever goes with this is going to regret it if they don't make changes to their software. Pick one: - Sell the device - Sell the software If you do both, you're going to alienate your customers and get regulatory wrath on…

I understand the concern around lock in. There is a technical hurdle to optimized thermostat variable speed heat pump interop. You have to turn the temperature error between setpoint and actual temperature into a compressor speed command and also factor in behavior such as defrost, compressor cycling limits, etc. So you have to have a communicating thermostat to fully utilize the efficiency of these variable speed he…

This doesn't seem at all worthy of anything proprietary, though -- a simple RS-485 or 10BASE-T1L protocol and a page of docs would do the trick.

And if you build this, you can also sell the same hardware plus a BacNET or MODBUS gateway for a bunch of money to the commercial building management types :)

Or you could support existing commercial 0-10V thermostats.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#312
post #242

It's strange seeing this post describe heat pumps as if they're a new thing, and everyone commenting as if they are. I live in New Zealand and heat pumps have been standard in new builds for just about 20 years now. They're great. If you want to add one to your home you can call up various companies to do it for reasonable prices (not sure how this stacks up against US prices, but I recently had a small 2.5kW cool/3.…

Heat pump passion is kind of a thing for some reason!

200-year old heat pump technology is back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34846762 - Feb 2023 (205 comments)

How a heat pump works - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34739375 - Feb 2023 (324 comments)

Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34708161 - Feb 2023 (174 comments)

Heat pumps of the 1800s are becoming the technology of the future - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34397715 - Jan 2023 (477 comments)

Do heat pumps work in cold climates? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34352309 - Jan 2023 (326 comments)

French startup unveils new residential thermo-acoustic heat pump - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34233719 - Jan 2023 (219 comments)

US companies are producing heat pumps that work below -20F - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34160672 - Dec 2022 (330 comments)

Heat pumps are now mandatory in new homes in Washington State - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33589627 - Nov 2022 (48 comments)

WA building council votes to require heat pumps in new homes and apartments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33526419 - Nov 2022 (14 comments)

Homemade Heat Pump Manifesto (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32959850 - Sept 2022 (247 comments)

Show HN: Heat Pumps, Hooray – A heat pump calculator for your home - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32838748 - Sept 2022 (56 comments)

Interest in heat pumps has increased dramatically in recent years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712140 - Sept 2022 (257 comments)

Heat pumps: what they do and why they’re hot now - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32431077 - Aug 2022 (23 comments)

Heat pumps are efficient and eco-friendly. So why are they so rarely used? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32182699 - July 2022 (34 comments)

Värtan Ropsten – The largest sea water heat pump facility worldwide (2017) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31985467 - July 2022 (19 comments)

DOE announces breakthrough in residential cold climate heat pump technology - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31791444 - June 2022 (398 comments)

We must ban boilers to force public to switch to £10k heat pumps' - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31086020 - April 2022 (26 comments)

Why Heat Pumps Are Immensely Important - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30814536 - March 2022 (23 comments)

You and the planet need a heat pump - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30746081 - March 2022 (139 comments)

Warmth from the earth and air: could heat pumps replace our gas boilers? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28258855 - Aug 2021 (13 comments)

Heat Pump Water Heaters - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23000192 - April 2020 (214 comments)

Heat Pumps Work Miracles - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19271162 - Feb 2019 (243 comments)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#313
post #309

> There’s a big push to end fossil fuel use in US homes by electrifying all end-uses If all end uses are electrified, where does that electricity come from if not fossil fuel in large part?

Solar and wind prices are extremely low and still dropping. They are already cheaper than other newly built options. Coal plants have been shutting down, natural gas is now way more expensive, nuclear can't build soon enough or cheap enough.

The transition in generation is happening too.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#315
Some questions:

What is the HEPA for? Is it on the fresh air intake or are you actually HEPA-filtering the recirculated air? If the latter, why not MERV 16? HEPA media is probably more expensive, and it definitely has much higher pressure loss, and there is no actual need for it outside of healthcare.

How are you humidifying?

Can you control the coil temperature in cooling mode and thus control the sensible/latent cooling ratio? (i.e. can the amount of dehumidification be adjusted on the fly as needed?)

Can you integrate with some kind of HRV or ERV?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#316

All-electric house owner here. 2x Carrier heat pumps, ducted air handlers. One of the carrier units is 13 years old and going great. Electrostatic filters on the air handlers. The house was built in the 50s and renovated in 2010, doubling the square footage. That's when they put in the oldest unit. Idk if it has to do with the mid-Atlantic temperature swings on the marginal seasons, but this time of year the house wi…

Thanks for the feedback! What was install like for you, any issues there? Do you have any comfort issues that you'd like to address, say a room to hot or cold?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#317

Would've loved to see a different approach to the typical refrigerant-split units. I'm EPA certified, and do my own heat pump work, but something that could really blow up the heat pump space would be a closed-loop refrigerant system that uses water lines to the indoor coil/air handler. This would make the system a true DIY self-install, since you'd never be messing with refrigerant loops. The indoor coil/AH could be…

Absolutely this. 3-4x? Sibling of mine just had a minisplit installed where the unit was probably $4-$5k and the total was north of $24k.

A sealed water loop where any plumber and most DIYers could manage would be miles ahead in both reliability and accessibility.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the company could at least leave it easy to hack :)

Implement with a swappable compute module?

We need an entire industry of 'appliance based Rpi's to be able to act as modules in a standardly compute plug-in-form factor (just like blades) with a unit preloaded with a config and just swap out inter connects - ich that we have an appliance hub, the solar/whatever input pushes power and the distributor determines where to push or halt the power - with a selector that tells me the input costs, and output draws, such that it can have a system to auto switch to best performance.

Honywell missed the mark on the importance of thermostats on the economy.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#319
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often wondered why this is. My best guess is that the EPA cert (not actually hard to get) has been turned into some sort of weird quasi-guild-membership thing. I can walk right in to a "to the trade" electrical or plumbing supply and they'll deal with me, no problem, no questions asked. With HVAC.. they won't even talk to you without an EPA number, even if you're not buying refrigerant. DTC for whole house syste…

I'm a potential customer for DTC/DIY installation, but I think that's a pretty small slice of the market. Many of my friends are entirely willing to drop $4-5K for a single zone mini-split install (that's $1-1.5K of equipment and 2 hours of labor) and wouldn't dream of drilling a hole in the side of their house to save $3K.

I recently got quoted $17k for 2 zone mini split. I bought the tools, instructions, and watched youtube and spent $4500 total. At that savings, I don't need a warranty. I can just buy and install another system if it fails.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#320
My main experience with heat pumps is a heat pump installed in the northern US in the mid 1990's.

As a user, the main problem is it's fine in spring and fall, but:

- (1) In winter (when the temperature is below freezing) it can't keep up, and needs to switch the gas furnace on

- (2) It often needs to be manually switched at the thermostat, you should be able to interface an outside thermometer and say "below X degrees use the gas furnace"

- (3) The homeowner told me that they'd never have bought a heat pump if they'd known it would only work for like 25% of the year. Decades have passed, so presumably you have better tech. But you need marketing and customer education to explain that it's better, and assure your customers that past bad experiences aren't indicative of future results if they buy your system. For me, that means performance metrics (e.g. curves for various house sizes showing the duty cycle needed to maintain a given indoor temperature as a function of the outdoor temperature) and testimonials from customers in states that border Canada.

Also, you stress fighting climate change a lot. My sense is that, if you emphasize climate change, you'll potentially alienate the half of the country who thinks climate change is fake news. (As a group, homeowners who buy heat pumps are probably older and more conservative.) You have a bigger market if you stay apolitical and sell a practical product. Features and cost savings appeal to everyone; fighting climate change does not.

Your pitch is fine for HN. But for a general audience I'd either (a) leave out the references to climate change, (b) move them pretty far down (not at the end but maybe 2/3 of the way down), and/or (c) emphasize "the government wants to fight climate change and is making the following assistance available..." informing customers those financing options exist without yourself taking a position on the issue.

Also, I agree with other commenters: It's important your product will keep functioning if you go out of business or the customer stops paying a subscription fee.

For me personally it would be great to have a wifi and Ethernet enabled thermostat with an HTTP JSON-RPC endpoint that gives raw data of when the heater turns on, indoor / outdoor temperatures, and be able to change the set-point or turn the system on/off via LAN (protected by some auth mechanism). An interface to existing FOSS home automation solutions would be nice to have but not essential. The main thing for me is that your interface is open and can be run without any subscription fees or access to the cloud.

It would be a real plus if everything's open source and off-the-shelf components. Ideally if a voltage spike sets the computer on fire, I can unplug the cables, slide the board out, buy a Raspberry Pi, Arduino or similar, re-cable everything, download the software onto an SD card, and bring it back up.

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