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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#261

Post by hectormalot »

This is a really important consumer problem to solve. We retrofitted a heatpump into our home about a 18 months ago and it wasn’t a great experience. Ranging from contractors not even replying (retrofit being harder than new homes), wildly different quotes and setups, lack of (API) integration, uncharitable on planning and timelines, Etc. Note: This was before the energy prices spike because of the Russian invasion into Ukraine, it’s gotten worse since then.

We’ve seen two similar start-ups (direct to consumer heat pumps) in the Dutch market. Might be interesting to have a look:

- https://www.quatt.io/ (4 or 8kW at $5500- and $6500. After which you get about $3000 subsidy.)

- https://www.dewarmte.nl/product-pompao (2-8kW modulating at $6500, or $3500 with the subsidy)

Both marketed as hybrid pumps because they don’t provide hot tap water and that’s typically still done with gas. Electric boilers being uncommon here.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#263

Post by skellington »

mdeeks wrote: post #93
kayson wrote: post #64

Ducted systems are horribly inefficient. Why heat/cool the entire house if you're only in one room? We paid $11k to have a 4-unit 42kbtu mini-split system installed in our condo. We love it. We turn the two units on in the living areas during the day, and just the two units in the bedroom at night. Each unit comes with its own remote and can be programmed individually. No need for an app-enabled/iot multi-zone thermo…

My main problem with mini-splits is that they are just ugly. I can't get past it. Neither can my wife nor others I've talked to. My engineer brain loves the idea, but I just don't want them on my walls nor do I want five different remotes laying around. I suspect thats a problem for many others too.

You can get mini-splits that don't have protruding wall units, but the real downside of mini-splits is indoor air quality.

They don't have good filters and they basically recirculate the air in the same room.

For a very tightly built house, you need to bring outside air in continuously, ideally through an energy recovering ventilator (ERV), and then you want to filter that air with a MERV 13 filter (or whatever target you want), plus you want to move and filter all the house air in general, plus you often want to control whole house humidity.

Mini-splits can't do any of the above.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#264

Post by [deleted] »

soheil wrote: post #89
cmui wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

I'd be careful catering to everyone asking for everything but the kitchen sink. Creating a non-cloud capable system is dumb. If you have customers like commenter above maybe put in a clause in the contract that says they will receive a partial refund if/when there is an acquisition event during the warranty period and bump up their price by 20%.

[deleted]

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#266

Post by pshirshov »

z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

Just buy an LG heat pump. They have cloud capabilities, though you have to install a separate module for that.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#267

Post by cmui »

adanto6840 wrote: post #232

Wish you had been around a few years ago, before I took the plunge on two 5-ton Bosch "BOVA 2.0" heat pump units -- I'd have seriously considered your product. The Bosch units are inverter driven and contain some interesting tech; we've had some issues with them, unfortunately I'm not sure that the HVAC industry is ready for such tech, but I do generally think it's the future. I continually wish (and search Github bi…

I'm sure there's some contractor unit that lets you see the live readout of compressor speed. As for Electric Air - we want to give visibility into system operation, what's the input electrical power, what's the output thermal power, how much have you spent on heating so far, and what's your average COP for a given time period (ratio of heating out/electrical in).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#268

Post by [deleted] »

cosmosisjones wrote: post #85
cmui wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

so what about places like Duluth, MN where it can be -20F ambient, then -40F to -50F with a windchill for several weeks of the year?

[deleted]

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#269

Post by nickparker »

cmui wrote: post #45
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

Please also be careful about selling to incumbents without a strong guarantee (ie contractual penalties) your product will stay in market for many years.

I know smoke detectors and a couple other crappy home goods have been fixed by scrappy upstarts, sold to the losers for <100M, and then shuttered to avoid pivoting the existing business. Heartbreaking lost progress every time it happens.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#270

Post by sokoloff »

thaeli wrote: post #255
oceanplexian wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already exists. Check out Mr. Cool Universal and Gree Flexx. Heat pumps that work with a normal thermostat exist. Most of the info about this stuff online is trash because HVAC is the most toxic online community compared to any other contracting profession. One of the reasons highly efficient mini splits haven’t took off in the USA- the self proclaimed experts want to charge $2000 to drill a hole and charge a line…

I've often wondered why this is. My best guess is that the EPA cert (not actually hard to get) has been turned into some sort of weird quasi-guild-membership thing. I can walk right in to a "to the trade" electrical or plumbing supply and they'll deal with me, no problem, no questions asked. With HVAC.. they won't even talk to you without an EPA number, even if you're not buying refrigerant. DTC for whole house syste…

I'm a potential customer for DTC/DIY installation, but I think that's a pretty small slice of the market. Many of my friends are entirely willing to drop $4-5K for a single zone mini-split install (that's $1-1.5K of equipment and 2 hours of labor) and wouldn't dream of drilling a hole in the side of their house to save $3K.
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