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Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

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Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#191

Post by senttoschool »

hackerlight wrote: post #183
senttoschool wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve lived in China and have friends there. People there aren’t told to love the CCP. They all have gripes about it like any people would have for their government. It’s not like North Korea. They do not want to overthrow it because the country is stable and their lives are improving. You underestimate the power the people have over the government. When Chinese are pissed off, they will go on the streets and protest…

The CCP will allow a certain level of protest as a release valve but to extend that to the claim that the people can just casually "overthrow" an authoritarian state when push comes to shove is not right. If it reached a boiling point the tanks would roll out and the protesters would be killed or imprisoned. > I’ve lived in China and have friends there. People there aren’t told to love the CCP. Again, managed dissent…

Have you ever been to China? Where do you get your news source?

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#192

Post by roeles »

schiffern wrote: post #31
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they - developed low-cobalt and low-nickel cathodes, to reduce scarce battery metals - increased overall vehicle efficiency to allow iron cathodes which are earth-abundant - consolidated electronic modules to reduce microchips and wiring - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low…

> are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal)

In an interview by Munro[1] , Elon Musk previously mentioned the desire to switch to 48V together with the desire to use PoE. Combining data and power over the same wires.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#193

Post by throw0101c »

schiffern wrote: post #31
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they - developed low-cobalt and low-nickel cathodes, to reduce scarce battery metals - increased overall vehicle efficiency to allow iron cathodes which are earth-abundant - consolidated electronic modules to reduce microchips and wiring - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low…

> - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal)

The move of automakers to 48V has been in the works for a while:

* https://www.autoevolution.com/news/understanding-the-shift-t...

* https://whma.org/overview-of-48-volt-systems-in-the-automoti...

* https://www.google.com/search?q=48V+cars

It's just a bit of a co-ordination / chicken-egg problem in that equipment probably has to be to handle 12V and 48V for a while during a transition period.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#194

Post by HyperSane »

realjhol wrote: post #111
HyperSane wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Moral judgement in international relations is not a necessity." Does this apply to Germany during WWII?

Both the UK and America targeted their bombs at civilians. This childish good vs. evil boomer narrative needs to die

Good vs Evil is a spectrum from Mr. Rogers to Pol Pot. This childish postmodern idea of moral relativism needs to die.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#195

Post by sundvor »

mym1990 wrote: post #165
sundvor wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has the highest EV penetration in the world. Nearly every single new car sold is an EV. It's therefore a great indicator about how various EVs will fare on a greater scale, perhaps.

Perhaps. The USA EV market outpaces Norway by a pretty large margin, and Tesla leads the US EV market in a similar way to Norway, I guess it depends on what data point is being looked for specifically. Relatively speaking Norway is a pretty tiny market to make large scale indications off of.

USA has nothing on Norway in % of vehicles sold being EVs.

Norway's population is a fraction of USA's, so of course USA will have the raw numbers.

However, Norway's new car BEV % is 80%. The remainder is split between hybrids and pure fossil.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#196

Post by partiallypro »

haspok wrote: post #88
partiallypro wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV start-ups competing with Tesla are all struggling. It's very likely that Rivian will simply go bankrupt in the next few years. The big automakers are also struggling, largely because their best sellers are bigger vehicles, at least in the US and charging & battery tech just isn't there for those models. Look at the attempt at the EV Hummer, it's a joke. My sample doesn't have to be random, 10 years ago I could go…

> You would not see Toyotas or Fords, etc. Tesla has been made into an exception. I'm sorry, but this is just completely false. Both car brands are extremely popular in most parts of Europe, not sure where you've been... Teslas are also popular, no doubt about it. They have some advantages (for example, the charging network) compared to others, we'll see how long it will last. As opposed to the US, the main EU high-s…

> I'm sorry, but this is just completely false. Both car brands are extremely popular in most parts of Europe

Extremely popular? I don't think so. 7% of market share is not "extremely popular." I've been in most every country in Europe and barely ever see any Fords, Chevys or Toyotas. Maybe some commercial vehicles for Ford, but rarely a car/SUV/truck. Most every car is a European brand or a sub-brand. Tesla doesn't have much share but is already at around 2%, however Tesla's Model Y was the top selling model in Europe last year. When I go to Europe now it's hard not to spot them because they make up such a significant portion of new car sales there. The most popular Ford (Kuga) was outsold ~6x by the Model Y, the most popular Toyota (Yaris) was outside ~2x by the Model Y. That's pretty significant given Ford and Toyota have been in Europe for a long time. Maybe you're conflating the UK with the rest of Europe, where Ford is more popular, I'm mostly referring to the mainland.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#197

Post by midoridensha »

electricships wrote: post #66
midoridensha wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to make authoritative comments about motors, you should actually get your facts correct first. >The Model 3 does use a permanent magnet motor, but it's an AC synchronous reluctance motor. No, synchronous reluctance motors do not use permanent magnets on their rotors. The motors that do are called "brushless DC motors". I'm not sure what the Model 3 uses, but last time I saw a cutaway, years ago, it wa…

What is the state-of-the-art for battery-electric ships? the power is probably MVDC from the large battery. And these are large xxMW motors. So will we end up usong inverters anyway?

No modern high-performance motor that needs speed control uses electric power directly from a battery or the mains: it always goes through an electronic controller of some kind, which uses transistors to generate the necessary waveforms at the required voltage. Whether the motor itself is a permanent magnet motor or an inductance motor doesn't really matter; they each have strengths and weaknesses, but they both need electronic controllers.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#198

Post by albrewer »

dv_dt wrote: post #158
albrewer wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aluminum is really easy to fatigue and fracture. In a car that is vibrating and jostling all the time, this could happen surprisingly quickly.

Airplanes flying for decades are made of aluminum.

Comparing car design and operating conditions to that of airplanes is kind of silly. The operating conditions of aircraft are far better defined and restricted.

Additionally, aircraft airframes are regularly inspected and fully radiographed at certain intervals. Components that develop flaws are changed out when the flaws are detected. The same is not true of cars.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#199

Post by Lolaccount »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #86
Lolaccount wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong evidence of their innovation capacity will never overcome intense dislike of the brand. And will never translate into a sale (n=1).

I mean this as politely as possible: no one cares what a few people in the HN bubble think. Units sold are units sold, and the total global addressable market for EVs is substantial (60-80 million units/pa, depending on bucketing). I too have personal opinions, but crucially, one should not extrapolate them out to entire markets without a rigorous examination of observations and data. Put your ear to the ground, othe…

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am under no illusion of Tesla's success.

Forget the total addressable EV market. They can cruise for another decade or more just based on the number of Elon worshippers.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#200

Post by satiric »

midoridensha wrote: post #65
satiric wrote: post #48

Umm, Teslas do not use DC motors, I don't know where the article got that idea. I doubt they've ever used DC motors for anything more powerful than an electric seat adjuster. The Model 3 does use a permanent magnet motor, but it's an AC synchronous reluctance motor. If you're going to make an article about electric motors in Teslas, at least make sure you get the facts about the electric motors right.

If you're going to make authoritative comments about motors, you should actually get your facts correct first. >The Model 3 does use a permanent magnet motor, but it's an AC synchronous reluctance motor. No, synchronous reluctance motors do not use permanent magnets on their rotors. The motors that do are called "brushless DC motors". I'm not sure what the Model 3 uses, but last time I saw a cutaway, years ago, it wa…

Ah, yes you're correct, a reluctance motor isn't a permanent magnet motor. Although the Model 3 does in fact use a PMSM - Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor, which is an AC motor. So not all permanent magnet motors are DC.
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