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Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

mortenhannemose.github.io

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Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#201

Post by twodave »

dahart wrote: post #174
twodave wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. I qualified the statement with "potentially" because I don't know whether she regrets it or not. The article title implies the image was sourced unethically, and my whole point was whether she regrets the photo or not today has nothing to do with whether it was of ethical origins.

Your top comment is making assumptions with or without the qualification. Even the suggestion that there’s “potential” regret is an assumption. It’s fair for me to point this out since I already knew that wasn’t true, there was no such potential. Edit to add the other massive assumption you keep making repeatedly is that the term “ethically sourced” says anything about the transaction between Lena and Playboy. It doe…

Well, at least we are speaking the same language, finally. Only I think we just genuinely disagree on some definitions. To me, it could be written “unethical to use in a professional setting” and I’d agree wholeheartedly. To me, this is the crux of my comments—where they got the image has little to do with how and to whom it is displayed. I’ll clarify further by saying the only reason I mentioned regret vs not is in connection with that word “source” and had less to do with the specific situation.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#202

Post by twodave »

dahart wrote: post #172
twodave wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are you doubling down on your assumption that this is about Lena without you knowing what actually happened? What makes you assume she didn’t know full well the image was not under her control? What makes you assume control over the image is even a relevant issue here? Three loaded questions in a row. I think you're reading more into my comments than I stated or intended. I'm not assuming anything, just answeri…

Hehe it’s funny to complain about perceived lessons right after saying “That class of thinking is exactly what she should have considered.” What I think I hear you saying is you don’t like the article’s title (an article that wasn’t written or endorsed by Lena) perhaps because it implies (without stating explicitly) that the original picture was unethical. The new one can be ethically sourced without the old one bein…

Yes, you’re correct. The title sucks.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#203

Post by whamlastxmas »

throwaway920333 wrote: post #168
whamlastxmas wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a slippery slope fallacy

You can call it a fallacy, but it's scientifically proven to work (see the reference in the parent comment).

My point is that these "foot in the door" changes are reasonable on their own merits without it being some ulterior motive to ask for more later. And making the assumption that there is indeed this motivation to ask for more later, and so we should disallow these requests today, is the slippery slope "what will they ask for next?!" fallacy

I agree that human psychology likely works that way, though.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#204

Post by zzo38computer »

smcl wrote: post #118
thepasswordis wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She wasn't upset at the photo being used, she was upset at the idea that it could discourage women from working for a tech company. But that isn't universally true either. This is like a conditional hypothetical. If this hypothetically this is causing women to not work for tech companies, then in that case she could hypothetically not like that. This is somebody (the OP) trying to use a drummed up controversy to prom…

I don't think Morten is trying to promote himself any more than any post on a personal blog is, humorous or otherwise. It's not like he is trying to springboard into a modelling career or anything. To me it seems that he doesn't seriously believe his photo will become the new "Lena", but he is still making a very clear statement: "you can use any other image, in fact here is one that is a drop-in replacement, it has…

> you can use any other image, in fact here is one that is a drop-in replacement, it has a similar aspect ratio, style and colour balance to the original.

OK, so those similar things, can be helpful. Also it is available in sizes bigger than 512x512, which is also something that was criticized that Lena picture is not bigger than 512x512. However, looking at the pictures, the colours do not really look like similar to me. Also, in the suggested new picture, it look like someone else in the background of the picture too.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#205

Post by drabbiticus »

throw009 wrote: post #193
drabbiticus wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like you and many other commenters have missed the broad general point to focus on the proverbial trees. I am replying to this comment because it is at the top of the HN comments at the time of this reply. It is a part of computing history that computer scientists at a respected educational institution chose to use a cropped version of a nude Playboy image as part of a test suite for the development of JPEG.…

> As a hypothetical, perhaps you are a straight male. Imagine for a moment that computer science was instead historically dominated by gay men, and that they had decided to use images from gay pornography as part of the JPEG test suite. If a straight man was to complain about too much gayness in the work place it would be a hate crime.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

In this hypothetical situation where straight men had historically struggled to break into the ranks of successful computer scientists, it's likely that gay men would similarly feel that if they were to complain about too much straightness in the work place it would be a hate crime.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#206

Post by nemo44x »

pseudalopex wrote: post #176
nemo44x wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Playboy exploitive or empowering today? I can't keep up.

Every day is the day when people have individual opinions. And those opinions can be more complex than good or bad.

Sure, but what’s the correct opinion right now?

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#207

Post by nemo44x »

drabbiticus wrote: post #149
nemo44x wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't most of "ethics" just concepts created by existing power structures to justify and maintain their legitimacy? Does loading your opinion with "ethics" make it any more valid?

I wouldn't be surprised if in certain social groups or contexts there are people who choose to toss the word "ethics" around very loosely and completely incorrectly. However, there is an entire serious study of ethics and ethical frameworks that is not simply about reinforcement of existing power structures and I would encourage you to broaden your education.

Of course. But self apparent ethics are used a lot to justify arbitrary things.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#208

Post by iameli »

jtriangle wrote: post #190
iameli wrote: post #121

Lena has said, in the linked video, that she would prefer her picture stop being used in this way. That ought be a sufficient condition for us, as developers, to stop using it. I'm distressed to find comment threads here are talking about copyright or complaining about "virtue signalling." You don't have to agree with her to respect her wishes.

You're also under no obligation to respect her wishes. Not that long ago she was happy that her likeness had gained celebrity status, and has recently changed her mind (a little). If you wish to be subject to the whims of someone that you don't know, and likely never will know, feel free. Sounds exhausting.

We're rarely under any obligation whatsoever to be kind, or empathetic, or caring, or socially conscious. Nonetheless, I aspire to be those things. So if I were writing a JPEG encoder, and I'm picking a test image, I could:

1. Use the Lenna, which originates from Playboy, which Wikipedia describes as controversial "on both technical and social grounds, and many journals have discouraged or banned its use", and where the subject in question has recently requested to cease its use, or

2. Use anything else.

I'd choose 2. Seems like an easy decision.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#209

Post by mock-possum »

jacobriis wrote: post #194
mock-possum wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, all three points are basically the same thing - exclusion / lack of inclusion. They could have chosen any photo, and they picked one that specifically depicted a naked white woman, primarily aimed at sexual gratification for straight men.

Beware of fine arts museums.

seems to me like you're comparing a still life painting of a bowl full of apples to oranges

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#210

Post by pseudalopex »

iaseiadit wrote: post #129
twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

The image is offensive because, as an photo sourced from a “men’s magazine”, it’s a reminder that mostly men worked on developing image compression and jpeg technology in the past, and this could make women feel left out or uncomfortable today. Seems motivated by political correctness, not any actual injustice, but perhaps it is time for a new image after this many years.

> The image is offensive because, as an photo sourced from a “men’s magazine”, it’s a reminder that mostly men worked on developing image compression and jpeg technology in the past, and this could make women feel left out or uncomfortable today.

Where did you get this idea? The continued use of the image in professional contexts discomforts people because the photo and the magazine were created for men's sexual interests. And there is little technical reason to use it now.

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