Live data from Hacker News

Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

mortenhannemose.github.io

141–150 of 228 posts

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#141
post #8

So we're swapping the possibly problematic ethics of a original with the possibly problematic ethics of showing this to people? I mean is it normal to find that mustache and hat combo this attractive, (as a hetero male)???

Meh I don't find the man unattractive personally. But I also wouldn't say he's attractive. Different strokes, may a hundred flowers blossom, etc. I certainly don't think it's ethically wrong to show this to people, or at least not for this reason. I do question if it's appropriate for the workplace though. I guess it depends?

But I think it's fairly clear that the point wasn't to be attractive.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#142
post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

The image is offensive because, as an photo sourced from a “men’s magazine”, it’s a reminder that mostly men worked on developing image compression and jpeg technology in the past, and this could make women feel left out or uncomfortable today. Seems motivated by political correctness, not any actual injustice, but perhaps it is time for a new image after this many years.

It’s pretty misinformed to suggest mostly men worked on JPEG technology.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#143

It used to make no sense to me how people would put so much effort into things like this that don’t matter. Yes, the photo is originally from Playboy, but most people don’t even know that because it’s cropped. It’s just a picture of a woman’s face. This and things like renaming master to main I now see as examples of the foot-in-the-door strategy[1]. Get people and teams to agree to a small request like changing thei…

This is a slippery slope fallacy

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#144
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is less about ethics and more about one person’s potential regret over a business transaction. Why do you believe this, and do you have any evidence to support this claim? Are you not aware of the history of this image? “Retiring Lena as an image used in coding goes beyond copyright, consent or ethics. It is a required step to help women feel more welcome in tech.” https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-…

Evidence? Why would I need any? There is no unethical origin of that photo, as the article claims there is. The burden isn't on me to prove non-existence, that's silly. But fair enough, I've clearly missed a bit of context. I think my overall point still stands, though. Though I personally think calling that cropped photo "pornographic" is a stretch, it's not an image I would have selected or personally find appropri…

In general, try and do some minimal research about the topic you are commenting on before coming in and speaking with authority about what is or isn't the case, especially about something somewhat sensitive and (unfortunately in this case) politically charged. It helps keep the quality of the conversations here somewhat acceptable, and promotes intellectual rigor and curiosity where its needed most. Its not a huge deal, but it can make a big difference.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#145

It's astonishing how a supposedly liberal and tolerant society is so much hateful towards eroticism it considers the Lena pic originating from a PlayBoy magazine to have a "troubled" origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_sexuality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminist-sex-markets/ that said, its considered problematic, or troubled, not because its erotica, but because a group of men used a photo of that nature as the test image. some could, and some probably do, consider tha…

This. Funny how this seemingly clear point doesn’t get across to the other side of the debate (this discussion, more then others, seem to divide the group into two sides: one that sees why using Lena can be considered troubled, and one that does not). I find this difficult to understand.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#146
post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

It feels like you and many other commenters have missed the broad general point to focus on the proverbial trees. I am replying to this comment because it is at the top of the HN comments at the time of this reply.

It is a part of computing history that computer scientists at a respected educational institution chose to use a cropped version of a nude Playboy image as part of a test suite for the development of JPEG. Part of that history is that in the 1970s someone felt it was appropriate to openly bring a copy of Playboy into the office and the response to that was to use something from it for an image test suite [1]. You are personally welcome to feel about it however you will.

However, many women are stating that the continued inclusion of a Lena image in test suites and as an important part of computing history makes them feel unwelcomed in tech spaces. As a hypothetical, perhaps you are a straight male. Imagine for a moment that computer science was instead historically dominated by gay men, and that they had decided to use images from gay pornography as part of the JPEG test suite. Suppose that gay men continued to be highly represented within the computer science workforce, and that in order to learn about JPEG compression, you also had to be confronted by those images in a computer science lecture hall in 2023 while surrounded as a straight individual by a room full of gay men. Suppose you hear even one classmate who feels comfortable, in this professional setting, commenting that "they could use some company like that around here" and hearing a few classmates chuckle around that.

Computing and computing literacy are such useful skills today. There are a myriad of tasks where even basic programming literacy would allow you to automate things and make you more efficient in your endeavors. More broadly as a society, we are leveraging machine learning models in so many contexts, and these have been shown to encode the societal biases which were present in their training sets. Representation across all axes of identity allow everyone an equal footing to advance in this technical skillset and also increases the chances that we identify when computing technologies are encoding bias in harmful ways. These women are saying that there are many things which can be done to improve the representation of women within tech spaces, and that removing Lena from curriculums and test suites does zero technical harm while increasing inclusivity. That is the ethical judgement at stake - to what extent do our current practices harm inclusivity and affect the likelihood of encoding harmful biases in the technology we develop now and in the future?

[minor point - if you are a legal stickler, use of the Lena image was also done in infringement of copyright. This is such a non-point in the actual discussion of the campaign, but it seems like a lot of comments basically fall along the line of "this is legal so whatever" and if you want to argue on this perceived technicality, it isn't even correct.]

[1] http://www.lenna.org/pcs_mirror/may_june01.pdf

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#148
post #113
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Yes, she has. It's at the bottom of linked article : Lena added: “I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me.”

She supports the movement (started by other people) to retire the image from tech, but she wasn’t particularly bothered by the use of the photo, she has said so in multiple interviews. “In 1988, she was interviewed by some Swedish computer related publication, and she was pleasantly amused by what had happened to her picture.” http://www.lenna.org/

Because we all know that opinions are static and can't possibly have changed over the span pf 35 years.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#149
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're confused between what's legally permitted vs what's ethical. something being legal doesn't prevent anyone from protesting or doing something about it, even if they had accepted a legal risk. you're also just wrong about the legal aspect of it and seem unfamiliar with licensing

Aren't most of "ethics" just concepts created by existing power structures to justify and maintain their legitimacy? Does loading your opinion with "ethics" make it any more valid?

I wouldn't be surprised if in certain social groups or contexts there are people who choose to toss the word "ethics" around very loosely and completely incorrectly. However, there is an entire serious study of ethics and ethical frameworks that is not simply about reinforcement of existing power structures and I would encourage you to broaden your education.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#150

It's astonishing how a supposedly liberal and tolerant society is so much hateful towards eroticism it considers the Lena pic originating from a PlayBoy magazine to have a "troubled" origin.

don't you think it's a little odd to use a porno crop in a professional environment? i would rightfully be fired immediately if i demoed something to client using a belle delphine crop. Lena is only given a pass due to tradition
Post reply on HN