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Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

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Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#141

Post by uoaei »

epolanski wrote: post #92
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

But battery research is ongoing from a century at this point, we can't possibly think that Tesla just came out of nowhere and thought a solution nobody considered before such as using less rare elements. It is most certainly a trade off and I'm not seeing where the cons are mentioned. Moreover, lithium-ion batteries have by far the most efficienty energy density, so what is tesla getting rid of, most certainly not li…

The article doesn't say anything about batteries. Just motors.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#142

Post by b112 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #75
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

As far as I am aware, there is nothing rare about "rare earth metals". The only reason the west relies on places like China and Russia is because refining them is very very polluting, producing a lot of toxic by products. So we either do that locally and pay 100x more to fund the clean up after. Or we import from China and Russia where they apparently don't mind everyone getting poisoned. So this isn't really anythin…

As far as I am aware, there is nothing rare about "rare earth metals".

My understanding is that both China and Russia underpriced on purpose, driving (for example) US mines and production out of business.

And after, then raised pricing.

There are many rare earth mines in North America, sitting fallow...

(This isn't an unknown business tactic for anyone to follow.)

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#143

Post by brookst »

KaiserPro wrote: post #113
brookst wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't want alluminium wires in your car Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Existing copper wires would be a disaster if cars ran on a 3V system. Aluminum at 48V will be fine, as long as it’s sized appropriately the same way copper is today.

> Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat. Thats not the argument, you can do that now with copper cables. Aluminium is a good conductor, but it is reactive, brittle and not as malleable as copper. also, copper has almost half the resistance per meter than aluminium. So even for solid bus bars, it doesn't make that much sense, unless you have structural bus bars.

Most car wiring harnesses are affixed to structural members and don’t need to flex.

And twice the resistance doesn’t matter. So you go one gauge bigger. If the material is cheaper, more available, and suitable, that’s fine. We don’t insist on gold wires because they’re “better” than copper.

It’s all tradeoffs. I don’t see a reason to be philosophically opposed to aluminum other than “it’s possible to do it wrong”, which is of course also true for copper.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#144

Post by zpeti »

jm4 wrote: post #94
manuelmoreale wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see why that’s relevant with the topic of reducing consumption of certain rare elements. Then failing at some of the goals shouldn’t detract from what has been accomplished. And if the end result is just electric cars that don’t use rara elements I think that’s a good thing, even without robotaxis

I assume that the relevance is that Tesla's claims don't count for much until they actually deliver. Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver. I consider him and his companies to be completely untrustworthy. He could b…

> Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver.

This is about as silly as people who think he’s the messiah. He’s clearly over promised on many things, but he’s also delivered on a lot.

And spacex motto is turning the impossible into late, so he’s being pretty honest about his goals being off. What’s the issue? Why do you hate him so much?

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#145

Post by snek_case »

manuelmoreale wrote: post #119
jm4 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that the relevance is that Tesla's claims don't count for much until they actually deliver. Elon Musk has a long history of misleading people about Tesla. Whether it's embellishment, overestimation of what they can accomplish, or outright lies is up for debate, but the fact remains that they habitually over-promise and under-deliver. I consider him and his companies to be completely untrustworthy. He could b…

Reading the original post, I assumed all of the things listed (except for one) are things that has been done already and not just promised by Elon. Buy maybe I’m wrong.

The majority of Teslas being sold right now use lithium iron phosphate batteries already. This isn't just some future plan, it's already largely implemented.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#146

Post by rr888 »

hulitu wrote: post #59
schiffern wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they - developed low-cobalt and low-nickel cathodes, to reduce scarce battery metals - increased overall vehicle efficiency to allow iron cathodes which are earth-abundant - consolidated electronic modules to reduce microchips and wiring - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low…

> Are any other manufacturers pushing as hard here? Why would they. Most of those things are not sustainable. You don't want alluminium wires in your car.

Copper costs 6x Aluminium and is much rarer + in a car you want to be as lightweight as possible. You need a good reason to avoid it.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#147

Post by albertopv »

mikojan wrote: post #76
albertopv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe bc China steal other countries tech (countless examples). Or blackmail countries [1]. Or kidnaps people [2]. Or reeducate people because of their ethnicity and religion [3]. Or still declares herself as a WTO developing country while having a space station all alone. [4] [1] https://it.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/07/il-montenegro-l... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/18/china-forced-2... [3] ht…

Quite the list. Wait until I have introduced you to an inconspicuous country called the United States of America.

Do USA declare their self a WTO developing country? Do US people disappear like they do in China? Jack Ma, Peng Shua, Bao Fan... Is there any vocational, education and training state internment camps in USA? Is there Great Firewall in USA?

USA can be a land of opportunities, but also quite a shitty country, I would never live there, but there's still rule of law and separation of powers. In China there's Xi Jinping rule.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#148

Post by dboreham »

partiallypro wrote: post #29
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehh, Tesla just sold their 4 millionth vehicle (waited until then for investor day so they could flex), are breaking ground in Mexico shortly on their new factory, and are rapidly approaching $100B/year in revenue at a 25-30% margin (while other EV startups are teetering near death and legacies are slow to catch up). Constructive skepticism is fine, but strong evidence of their innovation capacity is available (espec…

I have been a huge skeptic of Tesla, but when you visit Europe the roads are FULL of Teslas, and in the US the roads are now full of them too. In Europe it's more bizarre because generally those consumers were sticking with European brands. Seeing Fords or Toyotas is very rare there, but Teslas are everywhere. That made me a believer. However, I do think the company is probably overvalued. I think Elon Musk does a lo…

Hmm. I saw vastly fewer Teslas in the UK last month than I see in the US.

I drove the length of the country so don't think this was a sampling problem.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#149

Post by smoldesu »

realjhol wrote: post #111
HyperSane wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Moral judgement in international relations is not a necessity." Does this apply to Germany during WWII?

Both the UK and America targeted their bombs at civilians. This childish good vs. evil boomer narrative needs to die

Civilian casualty is the lowest-common-denominator. Right now, China is under scrutiny for current human rights abuses and a potential domestic ethnic-cleansing a-la third Reich. That's a slightly different situation than indiscriminate civilian casualty.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#150

Post by smoldesu »

mikojan wrote: post #76
albertopv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe bc China steal other countries tech (countless examples). Or blackmail countries [1]. Or kidnaps people [2]. Or reeducate people because of their ethnicity and religion [3]. Or still declares herself as a WTO developing country while having a space station all alone. [4] [1] https://it.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/07/il-montenegro-l... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/18/china-forced-2... [3] ht…

Quite the list. Wait until I have introduced you to an inconspicuous country called the United States of America.

Let's see Paul Allen's impunity index: https://www.eurasiagroup.net/live-post/atlas-of-impunity-202...
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