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EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

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Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good". As an iPhone, iPad, and iMessage user, please explain how I will "suffer horribly" from being able to interact with the iMessage service from non-Apple devices.

Apple seems to keep spam on iMessage fairly well controlled. If anyone can do iMessage on any device, it is logical that these protections may weaken over time.

I'll grant you that - but the proposed legislation isn't requiring Apple to allow iMessage users to receive unsolicited messages from external services.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

> The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. How do negative externalities and imperfect information figure into that? Sure, I'd love to buy Monsanto's awesome defoliant because it's cheaper than BASF's equivalent, but I may also get cancer from it in 5 years, or I may be killing pollinating insects for many miles downwind and downstream. Do you suppose market forces could have go…

Hehe some would say bad products wouldnt be sold for long but the truth is that most bad products are not gone because the market dictated it but because of regulations ;)

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#394
post #342
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] without actually realising that it is actually going to make things worse, that's what regulation does in most cases. Feels like a uniquely american take. Companies that are maliciously compliant are not the norm. Leaving behind that most is an ambiguous enough term that means you could basically discredit anything I come up with, how do you feel about regulations that limit the use of harmful or toxic chemic…

Respectfully, Americans can have this take because we created an environment where these companies could flourish. There is no European messaging standard for us to regulate because no European business could get to that point at all.

USA is a country with one language, one economy and 330 millions people. When you create a company there you automatically unlock a bigger market than EU, the comparison is not fair.

Also, anecdotally, SMS was invented in europe so no need to regulate something already open and european.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#395
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not make the case that ALL regulations must be erased to a zero, at all. I do believe that there must be a minimum of regulations that actually make everyone prosper and go along with each other. Unfortunately, regulating messaging so that anyone can have just a single app on their phone for that specific task is beyond unnecessary, but that's just my useless opinion I guess.

Regulation is also used as a euphemism for unelected bureaucrats creating policy with the force of law without real democratic input. Unless you consider the regulator retiring from government to take a seat on the board of a company he or she used to regulate or give $100k paid speeches to same a form of democracy I suppose. I don't know if that's what it means in the EU, but operationally it's observably what it me…

Your use of the term "unelected bureaucrats" as a delegitimizing pejorative is risible. Do yourself a favour and read Michael Lewis's The Fifth Risk.

The EU's civil servants are, by and large, an exceptionally talented bunch of people, most of whom are multilingual in addition to being experts in the fields they were hired for.

As for their having power, it's subject to democratic constraint. Maybe you should inform yourself about the process by which EU regulations are made? (No, it isn't perfect; you could start with the Trilogue Process).

We'll regulate as we see fit in the EU. Businesses that don't like it are welcome and free to go do business elsewhere.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it is actually going to make things worse, that's what regulation does in most cases. Yes all those regulations that actually make things worse. Which ones are those again? specifically? I find that generally people who make hand-wavey boogeyman 'regulation is bad' arguments typically struggle to identify which regulations are bad and why, and conveniently forget about the thousands of regulations that make their li…

Please accept all cookies to receive your response.

This is not the take you think it is.

The regulation was there to prevent companies from abusing cookies, banner is just a side-effect of companies not willing to respect privacy.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the (grand)parent would argue is that this isn't removing barriers to competition, it's removing competition itself . That is, iMessage is a feature provided by Apple that makes their products more compelling as compared to their competitors. By requiring Apple to provide this feature to their competitors, they lose one of the key differentiators that make their products "better" than their competitors.…

> it's removing competition itself. That's pretty funny considering the European Commission's original complaint against Apple was for anti-competitive behavior. Maybe things would have turned out differently if Apple hadn't embraced, extended and extinguished SMS. Maybe regulators would be a little more lenient if the App Store was ruled with anything other than an iron fist. But now they have to take action, not be…

[deleted]

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communication infrastructure is comparable to interstate networks, utilities, etc. If one is serving an appreciable percent of humanity expect to have your work, at least in part, and development avenues, decided for you by the governments representing the people you serve. I believe there is a philosophical misunderstanding here. Your users do not exist to serve your whims. Your projects continued existence is not a…

You misunderstand—it’s not a mystery that scale attracts regulation. The mystery is in why people think that OS engineers should have no freedom to make design choices. Where, even, is the disrespect in being a mere option amongst many? It’s not like Apple is forcing people to buy into their ecosystem. And to your point about comms infrastructure—how does interoperability across messaging apps even look like, and doe…

> The mystery is in why people think that OS engineers should have no freedom to make design choices.

Are you employed or vested in this industry? This rhetoric is disingenuous and can be seen as bad faith argumentation. We are, rather explicitly, not talking about mere design decisions. We’re actually discussing the functionality of one of the largest messaging providers in the world with one the largest valuations in the world. You should keep the facts of the topic in mind and not detour into baseless hypotheticals that are antithetical to TFA.

> Where, even, is the disrespect in being a mere option amongst many?

We’re not talking about a guy in his garage. When a company, as large as apple, provides a service they enter a social contract to provide a reasonable quality of service for all users. Apple is willfully and repeatedly violating this contract. Hence, they are being held to account by the governments comprised of their users and enacting the will of said governments constituents.

>It’s not like Apple is forcing people to buy into their ecosystem.

By deliberately differentiating between customers and non customers in the quality of service experienced by their customers and those non customers their customers communicate with they are exerting market force. TFA is about the EU responding to this force with force.

> how does interoperability across messaging apps even look like, and does the idea even make sense?

This is likely the purview of an organization like ISO. If this is such an alien idea to you, perhaps you should expound on your perspective because at first blush it seems to me that you don’t understand the history of how modern communications were developed and implemented.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#399

As nice as interoperability (and the accompanying possibility of something like a modern-day Adium) is, I worry that this will introduce SMS' rampant spam problems to iMessage and the various other messaging services that will also be required to open up. Part of the reason spam is so rare on iMessage is because it requires an iCloud account on an Apple device, which not only raises the barrier to entry significantly…

I'm receiving lots of (non-SMS) spam over iMessage, though. Sometimes daily.

Interesting, I've received maybe a single digit number of the course of a decade and some change. SMS spam on the same number and on a number only used on an Android phone is much more frequent.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People vote with their dollars. If people don't like the dumb messaging, they can move to a different platform. With infinite amounts of other free apps, why are regulations necessary? Let people decide for themselves.

So people who have no dollars get no vote and deserve nothing? Should we take the same approach with clean air and see what happens?

> people who have no dollars get no vote and deserve nothing?

On how messaging works on thousand-dollar phones? Yes.

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