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EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

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Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#351

Post by bilekas »

influx wrote: post #342
dijit wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] without actually realising that it is actually going to make things worse, that's what regulation does in most cases. Feels like a uniquely american take. Companies that are maliciously compliant are not the norm. Leaving behind that most is an ambiguous enough term that means you could basically discredit anything I come up with, how do you feel about regulations that limit the use of harmful or toxic chemic…

Respectfully, Americans can have this take because we created an environment where these companies could flourish. There is no European messaging standard for us to regulate because no European business could get to that point at all.

> Respectfully, Americans can have this take because we created an environment where these companies could flourish

Flourish is a generous term.. There are countless examples of companies in all industries who will take full advantage of no regulations in the pursuit of profits solely.

And only when it's too late and they have caused so much chaos for people will they lobby for their own "symbolic" regulations.

There is a happy medium in there somewhere, but the US model is not it.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#352

Post by hellojesus »

JoeNr76 wrote: post #262
hwbehrens wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the (grand)parent would argue is that this isn't removing barriers to competition, it's removing competition itself . That is, iMessage is a feature provided by Apple that makes their products more compelling as compared to their competitors. By requiring Apple to provide this feature to their competitors, they lose one of the key differentiators that make their products "better" than their competitors.…

In the case of iMessage, Apple has a competitive advantage that stifles competition, not enhances it. Setting a baseline for interoperability is not the same as requiring them all to be the same.

People vote with their dollars. If people don't like the dumb messaging, they can move to a different platform.

With infinite amounts of other free apps, why are regulations necessary? Let people decide for themselves.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#353

Post by dijit »

influx wrote: post #342
dijit wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] without actually realising that it is actually going to make things worse, that's what regulation does in most cases. Feels like a uniquely american take. Companies that are maliciously compliant are not the norm. Leaving behind that most is an ambiguous enough term that means you could basically discredit anything I come up with, how do you feel about regulations that limit the use of harmful or toxic chemic…

Respectfully, Americans can have this take because we created an environment where these companies could flourish. There is no European messaging standard for us to regulate because no European business could get to that point at all.

Respectfully, its mostly because anything that is successful in Europe is immediately purchased by the big US tech giants.

Mojang and Skype come to mind. As well as three of my former companies that are now owned by Oracle.

The EU market is definitely harder, it is not as contiguous and large as the US one, even the smallest required task: localisation, is hugely expensive.

So you can hit a critical scale faster in the US, sure, but any time anyone actually conquers Europe all that awaits them is acquisition.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#354

Post by scohesc »

tekknik wrote: post #199
willyt wrote: post #86

If everyone's messaging has to be compatible with everyone else's then maybe we will finally only need one messaging app on our phones again instead of 5. Sounds great. I just want to be able to send messages without thinking about which app I need to go into to communicate with a particular person; that really breaks my flow when I'm trying to get something done. I don't give a shit about any features apart from pic…

But then your messaging app will have to be compatible with discord, and both offer and accept video streams. It will be impossible to build an app that supports everything. And with 10%-20% global turnover as a fine, the EU is turning into a dictator.

I'd be fine with the EU proposing certain standards that must be met in order for an app to be used as an official messaging app, like:

[ ] - Can send and receive basic text messages [ ] - Can send and receive rich text messages (bold, italics, underline, headings, etc.) [ ] - Ability to send and display file formats (debatable which ones - maybe force custom animated emojis to be transmitted, cached for later use as compatible file formats (webm, gif, etc.)

Just as an example.

The EU is going to mess it up, as they likely will by forcing all companies to "fall in line" with standards that will likely not be updated frequently, instead of allowing smaller companies to innovate first, then enforcing current policies if there's too much BS behaviour in the industry.

See - current rumors of Apple creating "special" Apple USB-C cables that will be the only ones to allow faster charging and data transfers, compared to other high-quality USB-C cables that an iPhone won't permit to have high data transfer rates and will charge devices slowly. You can set the standard, but companies with enough money and legal know-how can still bypass the intent of the law! Smaller companies can't compete on the accessories market.

Unless other government are serious about this (the EU is a fairly small market segment compared to the rest of the world), we're going to see more of this regulation dodging and chicanery from massive companies while smaller ones suffer or struggle to succeed in a marketplace dominated by capital interests.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#355

Post by rowanG077 »

mattrighetti wrote: post #165

This sounds nice, but when you really think about the consequences it really is not. Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer? What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp want to implement something "different" that could make messaging better but this policy is making things harder to implement because it would be impossible to make it interoperate with other messaging apps? I don't get w…

I struggle to see how it's not possible to have features gated based on the capabilities of the partner you are chatting with.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#356

Post by kirel33 »

hellojesus wrote: post #350
jrm4 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy HERE is "individual preferences accurately reflect collective good." Again, there's no clear-cut answer at any given time whether or not "this particular possibly-restrictive regulation is good for everyone." Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. That's what you use democracy/government for, to figure these things out.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

The whole point of market economies is for those who have the most wealth decide how resources are utilized.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#357

Post by harywilke »

afiori wrote: post #299
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well this is the way legislation works, it's considered bad form to call them out by name so you choose some few characteristics that apply to them which has the side benefit that if in the future some other company comes along with those characteristics the same laws apply to them.

Also I am quite sure that such a law would be unconstitutional in a lot of places.

yup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#358

Post by eatsyourtacos »

stevehawk wrote: post #338
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communication infrastructure is comparable to interstate networks, utilities, etc. If one is serving an appreciable percent of humanity expect to have your work, at least in part, and development avenues, decided for you by the governments representing the people you serve. I believe there is a philosophical misunderstanding here. Your users do not exist to serve your whims. Your projects continued existence is not a…

There's is a near infinite number of competitors to iMessage. There's Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Viber, Kik, Skype, Whatever Google Makes that they'll kill in six months, WeChat, Snapchat, Lime, Telegram... and I'm sure a bunch of others I've never heard of but other people live and die by. Not mention SMS and MMS. As a result, I don't understand why people are so mad at iMessage that they need it crippled…

I know this thread is from the EU- but I'm giving the US perspective here just FYI.

>There's is a near infinite number of competitors to iMessage

50% of phones in the US are apple phones. Nearly everyone is exclusively using iMessage (and doesn't even realize that it's proprietary while trying to mix in SMS). Hardly anyone uses anything like whatsapp here. Good luck getting any somewhat older person to use multiple messaging apps. So to say there are an infinite number of competitors is completely disengenious.

>As a result, I don't understand why people are so mad at iMessage that they need it crippled. You're not forced to use it. Apple doesn't block other messaging applications

First, apple is not perfect with SMS integration. I was on android for many years. My mom (an apple fanatic) would constantly complain that her messages wouldn't go through, or my messages wouldn't come in. Apple has some SMS issues that, while rare, are either intentional to some degree or they refuse to fix. It got to the point that my mom literally wanted me to move to an iphone simply so I could message her properly.

THIS IS WHAT APPLE WANTS. You are absolutely a fool if you don't acknowledge that.

They have half the market share and create a walled garden to the point where people feel they must move to their platform simply to properly communicate with people.

That being said, I did move to iphone recently. Not just for this- I was sick of android because I want a phone that just works. However, even I felt compelled to just make the switch since everyone I know does use an iphone and iMessage will make it easier for me to communicate with everyone. It was definitely a large factor, even though I hate myself for doing it.

Apple is not innocent at all here- it's an objective fact that they have half the market share and specifically do not open up their messaging platform in order to get more people to switch over. It's a flagrant abuse of their power.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#359

Post by hellojesus »

mort96 wrote: post #293
baby wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It made browsing the web an inferior experience for all users. Come on. Let’s not continue this charade and just accept a valid argument when you see one

I agree. These companies are making the web a worse experience for all users. I wish they would stop. At the very least I get the option to not be tracked on those shitty websites, but I would really, really have preferred if they didn't make me go through all those intentionally confusing and probably illegal steps to opt out of tracking.

You always have the option to turn off cookies. There is literally 0 check you have as a user to ensure a company isn't nefariously using cookies despite your preferences. All the law did was force trash pop-ups everywhere.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#360

Post by sangnoir »

hellojesus wrote: post #350
jrm4 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy HERE is "individual preferences accurately reflect collective good." Again, there's no clear-cut answer at any given time whether or not "this particular possibly-restrictive regulation is good for everyone." Sometimes it is, sometimes it ain't. That's what you use democracy/government for, to figure these things out.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

> The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources.

How do negative externalities and imperfect information figure into that? Sure, I'd love to buy Monsanto's awesome defoliant because it's cheaper than BASF's equivalent, but I may also get cancer from it in 5 years, or I may be killing pollinating insects for many miles downwind and downstream.

Do you suppose market forces could have gotten rid of lead in paint or gasoline if regulations hadn't?

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