Live data from Hacker News

Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

caaspp-elpac.ets.org

201–210 of 256 posts

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#201
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the solution to this problem is rather obvious. (Let other teachers grade the students)

I’m not sure how this is obvious when there is a teacher shortage almost everywhere. I’d be willing to bet that more often than not students’ exam proctor is not their everyday teacher. Also while this is a solution to the symptom of perverse incentives, it is still part of a bandaid approach. Low-performing schools are already spending weeks and weeks teaching to the test, which is fine for achievement but just a st…

Instead of arguing that it won't work, why not give it a try? What's there to lose?

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. I've proposed before having a bonus to the teacher for every student that reaches grade level at the end of the year.

> When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. There are already extensive punishments for failure on this front, and it's a huge part of what schools' attention and focus go toward, especially post-NCLB.

No, there isn't punishment. Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired. See "Waiting for Superman".

(Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.)

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#203
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from a social development standpoint it makes sense, a lot of "geniuses" had/could develop problems growing up with people emotionally/socially more mature, altough keeping gifted people with underperformers and lowering education level to keep them "afloat" is a disservice to both groups

People are not underperformers , you can't and shouldn't segment the population across some quantitative boundary. Each individual should learn at a difficulty gradient for them that is positive and engaging for each subject. For everyone this will be a different value. What you are describing is a form of damaging elitism.

public education is tailored to the class-level and school-year not individual performance, using underperformer is correct and they should be grouped by level of teachability and put on separate lanes than other students while obviously limiting self-limiting beliefs / segregation factors (like having a mixed classes of physical education or projects).

I radically believe one of the most damaging factor for education outcomes is (lack of) family support, most people dont have it in their most important formative years, so the state should put all highschool kids in oncampus communities for the 5 day week and let them use only earned cash (also by remunerating grades), while seeing family on weekend and vacations (vacation time should be connected to academic output)

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#204
post #128
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nearly 50% of people perform below average is that bad?

If the average is what should allow you to succeed in the next grade, then the problem is that they are being allowed to go on to the next grade where they won't be prepared and will take resources from the kids that were prepared.

Most of the time 50% of the population is below average. If you want to fail everyone who is below average you will likely fail 50% of the population.

Sure, it is possible that there are very low outliers pulling the average down so that the median is well above average, but I doubt that is generally the case.

The description of a grade level standard is basically an average performance estimate. It may have been codified in the past when the average was different, and they may have chosen to set the grade-level standard lower than the mathematical average for various reasons.

So it's not necessarily the case that 50% being below grade level is just normal. But without knowing how it is calculated and what the grade-level means, the headline is not useful. The general idea that there is a expectation being met by slightly less than 50% of the population seems totally expected from a mathematical standpoint and does not indicate any deficiency on its own.

Lets say it were worded like this: "Less than 50% of students are not meeting minimum grade-level proficiency standards in math." That would tell me something much more concerning. Because Minimum standards should be something that a vast majority of students can achieve. But it will always be the case that if we have and estimate of the "normal" mathematics ability for a particular grade, about 50% will likely exceed it and about 50% will likely fall short.

So does on-grade-level mean minimum expectations, or an estimate of normal grade-level abilities? I don't know. Reading through the website I see that when their standard is that the student shows competency that is consistent with progress toward being ready to take college level courses after finishing 12th grade. So it seems that they have set milestones for certain skills and placed them along a track for each grade. However those tracks are still likely influenced by the average abilities of most students.

I would still expect that any given student is likely to have productive periods and less productive periods throughout their schooling and might fall-behind for a while and might catch up later when some focus is returned. As a result I would still expect that at any time a large portion of students are going to be in falling-behind mode, then catching up later. Only a small percentage will just spend their entire time being ahead of the curve in math ability. The ones who don't have a particular interest will do what it takes to meet minimum often enough, when pressured by parents or teachers or counselors.

If the standards are set so low that 70% of students stay ahead of them most of the time, the standards are probably too low and we are not ambitious enough in our expections. Likely we would not sufficiently motivate the schools to achieve maximally. If they are so high that 70% of students at any time are falling behind, then they are probably too high and would only be discouraging. ~50% seems ideal to me. If we had 55% of students meeting expectations at any time, I'd want to raise the expectations.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is “grade level” to you?

Last time this same exchange (involving the same poster) happened on here, it came out that of course there'd have to be a bunch more nuance than just "pay teachers a bonus for having more kids end the year on-grade-level". Which, yes, obviously there would. That was acknowledged. But, of course, the real wrinkle is that that system, with much of that extra nuance, is what's already in use. No bonuses to teachers for…

> No bonuses

That's not what I proposed, so "that system" is not already in use. The key feature is a monetary bonus.

People love to strongly assert that they are professionals, and a performance bonus does not change their performance. I've never seen a performance bonus yet that did not improve it.

(It's why, back in the Zortech days, we gave a cut of the monthly gross sales to each employee.)

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#206
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A blackboard and chalk do not need heavy funding. The classes I learned the most at in university consisted of a professor, a blackboard, and chalk.

And you're focusing on the funding requirements of the blackboard and chalk in that equation? The funding (and quality!) of the professor seems more relevant, whether they're teaching on a blackboard, a fancy networked glowing screen, or just declaiming from atop a rock.

Well, yeah, it's the professor, not all the expensive props that the schools say they need funding for.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is “grade level” to you?

Last time this same exchange (involving the same poster) happened on here, it came out that of course there'd have to be a bunch more nuance than just "pay teachers a bonus for having more kids end the year on-grade-level". Which, yes, obviously there would. That was acknowledged. But, of course, the real wrinkle is that that system, with much of that extra nuance, is what's already in use. No bonuses to teachers for…

That’s not really an answer to what I asked. What does grade level, as a term and metric, mean to you? Because in this context it means the median score on a standardized test. That it’s about 50% is structurally unsurprising.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a workable idea, but needs more development. That system incentivizes working at schools where children are already likely to be at grade level, have supportive parents, etc. The best teachers will flock to schools that don't really need additional help. I'd propose to spin that and base it on deltas. Taking a student that was already achieving expectations and is still doing so earns $X. Taking a student that w…

> That system incentivizes working at schools where children are already likely to be at grade level, have supportive parents, etc. The best teachers will flock to schools that don't really need additional help. I feel like that's a problem we already have today. Parents who are motivated to get their child a good education will move to places with good educational outcomes. These parents are already invested in how…

> Parents who are motivated to get their child a good education will move to places with good educational outcomes.

Yeah, well, it's a big jump going from free to $17,000/year

> how to improve low outcome schools to the point where they are an adequate substitute for a poor parent.

Give teachers a bonus for each student that achieves at grade level. Let the teachers figure out how to do it.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where this narrative comes from, but I think it is false. The reason I think that is Covid. With kids learning remote and going all digital, the facade was lifted from teaching. Parents can and did directly experience what our kids were going through. Our kids’ lowest standardized State scores were with teachers who were terrible. A science teacher who hated kids in general (really). A general teacher ne…

Maybe bad teachers can pull down performance way more than good teachers can raise it. You'd need to compare the performances of kids with varying levels of help at home in classes with good teachers vs bad teachers. My own experience in school was that I tuned out bad teachers completely. If the teacher was good, I engaged more with the material in class. But in all subjects I had my parents' considerable expertise…

My parents never helped me with homework and I did fine cause I had great teachers. In think focusing on the home and “home work” is putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. We go to school to learn. That is where learning should be evaluated and focused.

Pushing this on parents and home life is naive, immoral and wrong.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. I've proposed before having a bonus to the teacher for every student that reaches grade level at the end of the year.

The general idea you're getting at, incentivize teacher performance, rests on the underlying assumption that a "great teacher" can have an outsized impact on students outcomes in the one year they're teaching the student. Much of the US tried to find evidence of this in the 2000s and failed. Past the basic "does the teacher understand the material?" level, outcomes on a year-long basis are dominated by: - Home life (…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN