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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#231
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike sharing services are great in those situations. You don't even need to carry your bike in the train. There is also public transit like trams and buses.

I didn't see many bikes in Amsterdam capable of conveying luggage.

People carry entire families on their bikes in Amsterdam. There's been a massive boom in cargo bikes of every sort. But even regular bikes often have a small crate.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is talking about taking away cars from people who live outside of cities. Yet this argument always comes up when problems with cars in densely populated areas are discussed.

This probably occurs because people and governments love one size fits all solutions. There’s a good chance any rules about cars made in the city will spill over and cause issues for people in the country, it happens all the time in regards to other things so why not this?

Open your eyes and look at the "one size fits all" solution that we have today. Cars upon cars upon cars.

Alternatives such as public transport, walking and cycling have always been gimped in favour of car traffic, lest the car driving populace complain.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#233
post #122
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

It's similar in Singapore which arguably, because of its size has amazing public transport. But what do a lot of people do if they can afford it? Buy a car, especially if you want to live away from the city center and have kids. They even pay the $100,000 fee for a 10 year permit to have a car, on top of 100% import tax. That's close to $175,000 just to own some tiny 3-cylinder car for 10 years.

I spent a month in Singapore in 2015, staying at an apartment in Haugong, 10km from my office.

Public transport took an hour to get to the office. A taxi was 20 minutes. I'd agree public transport isn't great by a long way. Riding a bike if I lived there permanently might have been better, even with the 32 degree heat.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a car country. São Paulo has more car than population, and has so many cars that their area summed is bigger than the area of all streets in the city. It is so many cars that sometimes walking 1 hour to your workplace is faster than a car route where you can spend 2, 3 hours to go to a neighborhood next to yours during rush hour. So many cars that the city became also the city with most helicopters, becau…

Does São Paulo have more cars than people even if you include children? Surely there must also be an underclass of very poor or homeless people who do not own cars. What accounts for the fact that there are more cars than people? Is it common for a household of four (mother, father, son, daughter) to own five or six cars?

No, São Paulo doesn't have more cars than people. I don't know where the parent got their data. I'll stand corrected if shown data supporting it, but the numbers I found were more like 7 cars for ever 10 inhabitants, and I don't even know if children taken into account. I lived in São Paulo for many years, and I sold my car before I moved there. Living downtown, one is better off without one. However, more cars than inhabitants seems and exaggeration.

Edit: Did some quick checking. According to the national institute of statistics, São Paulo's fleet is about 8.8 million (this includes over 1 million motorcycles, plus all the busses, tractors, trucks, etc. Regular cars are 6 million). Population is 12.3 million.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#235

Millennial: same feeling here. When I talk to people of my parents generation they always talk about how cars let them roam about and give them freedom. I never felt the same way, and I think a large part of that is that I grew up with the Internet; I could always AOL Instant Messenger (AIM) my friends or use ICQ. I was always connected even during an era of dialup. With the always-on functionality of modern phones,…

This strikes me as sad that young people are replacing real life connections with digital, and then wondering why they're all so depressed.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#236
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

>First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country...On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dut…

> The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock.

Having visited Amsterdam by chance after missing a flight to London due to NYC gridlock traffic, this was one of my first thoughts on arrival.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the question that anyone that rejects cars would ask is "why do you choose to live 60km from your work?".

Because most people don't have the luxury of choosing those things. - I don't have any meaningful control over where I'm allowed to work - I don't have any meaningful control over where my spouse is allowed to work - I only have a tiny amount of control over where I'm allowed to live (most of it prices us out, despite being above-average income) - even if I do exercise some control, it can be changed or stripped from…

The 15 minute city isn't one you never leave, it is one where basic tasks of life are within 15 minutes. Most people will leave it for work, but they will stop and play within 15 minutes of home.

Otherwise you are spot on. If your company moves offices within the same city's MSA they assume you can get there. If they move office to a different city they will pay to move you.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also be curious to see an inflation adjusted cost of use+ownership model for the average car owner. Cars are getting more complicated, and manufacturers are almost forcing owners to take them to a dealership for any kind of service. I'm generally handy and usually perform my own maintenance on my vehicles. As such, I tend to drive 10-20 year old Japanese vehicles. I remember once when I confidently told my partne…

Maintenance difficulty varies a lot by make and model. Doing anything on a mini Cooper is an exercise in sheet frustration. A Honda Civic is a breeze. In fact, it should probably be no surprise that Toyota and Honda typically fill out the entire top end of the "easy to maintain" spectrum, and American and European brands the other end.

Model to model variance is far, far, far larger than brand to brand variance.

You don't wanna have to work on 10lb of shit in a 5lb sack no matter who's badge is on the grill.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#239

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

> but even then, I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. I don't know what's different, although I have some guesses. Money, I'm sure, but there's something that's nagging me about it. I'd argue it's a combination of money and aging infrastructure. Money is the big one (cars used to be a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain. Incomes for most used to be much higher). Infrast…

Well but this is simply not the case. Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income. They also last a lot longer so used cars are much more of an option than they were 30 let alone 60 years ago.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#240

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it. Not sure if rich people worry about this, which is what the article is about, rich people. Agree wit everything else you said though.

It's not about rich people, it's about people at all levels of wealth in the developed world. Rich relative to the world's poorest, but not the 1% who don't worry about the costs of owning a car.
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