Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#121

Post by zdragnar » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

digdugdirk wrote: post #50

galangalalgol wrote: post #11

The article specifies rich, maybe beacuse, at least in the US, only the rich can afford to live in places where cars aren't strictly necessary? Some choose to live elsewhere anyway, for scenery or privacy, but the poor or even median 60% can't choose an area with a 15 minute walk to necessities. The Seattle walkability map on hn recently highlighted that fairly well I think? I also wonder if it is truly cars or just…

I'd also be curious to see an inflation adjusted cost of use+ownership model for the average car owner. Cars are getting more complicated, and manufacturers are almost forcing owners to take them to a dealership for any kind of service. I'm generally handy and usually perform my own maintenance on my vehicles. As such, I tend to drive 10-20 year old Japanese vehicles. I remember once when I confidently told my partne…

Maintenance difficulty varies a lot by make and model. Doing anything on a mini Cooper is an exercise in sheet frustration. A Honda Civic is a breeze.

In fact, it should probably be no surprise that Toyota and Honda typically fill out the entire top end of the "easy to maintain" spectrum, and American and European brands the other end.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#122

Post by refurb » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:33 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #109

wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

It's similar in Singapore which arguably, because of its size has amazing public transport. But what do a lot of people do if they can afford it? Buy a car, especially if you want to live away from the city center and have kids.

They even pay the $100,000 fee for a 10 year permit to have a car, on top of 100% import tax. That's close to $175,000 just to own some tiny 3-cylinder car for 10 years.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#123

Post by ddevault » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:34 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #109

wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

This is a pretty unusual situation, where you presumably live in the sticks and commute to the city, or vice versa? In the cities, particularly Amsterdam, cars are not the favored option. In Amsterdam 38% of travel is by bike, Zwolle is 46%. Across the whole country the averages break down at 45% by car, 36% by bike, and 11% by transit. That is to say, a very slight majority prefers modes other than a car across the country as a whole, and within cities the difference is presumably more significant. These figures, even in their most conservative interpretation, are wildly different from the United States, where travel by bike is a rounding error and the public transit options are abysmal.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#124

Post by pc86 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

david-gpu wrote: post #51

moffkalast wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is the part where you need to get to and from the train station to your actual destination, which could be on the very other side of town. It can be solved with shuttles or taxis, but that adds even more complexity and annoyance than just driving directly, especially with luggage.

Bike sharing services are great in those situations. You don't even need to carry your bike in the train. There is also public transit like trams and buses.

I didn't see many bikes in Amsterdam capable of conveying luggage.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#125

Post by vanilla_nut » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #89

I grew up in a small/medium sized city with a bus system. I couldn't wait to get a car and stop having to live my life around the bus schedule (especially on the weekends.) I don't buy this article's argument. Outside of cities there will always be a demand for cars. My daughter just turned 16 and she's working/saving for a car and won't shut up about it - which IMO is great...motivation to work hard, keep her grades…

I'm a young millenial. I have a number of Gen Z cousins and coworkers who admit that they hate driving, many of which never got a driver's license.

I loathe car dependence too, but I suspect a lot is linked to frugality: I grew up with gas prices approaching $5 a gallon and it certainly didn't feel freeing to pay that to go literally anywhere (plus maintenance and upfront costs and insurance, of course).

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#126

Post by rexpress » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #74

nostromo123 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... For my family it's not even about the physical aspect, but about time. I don't want to waste my free time going to and from places in 2x/3x the time it takes by car.

> in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries... Fully expecting that comment, and I look forward to that person describing how they take an elderly parent to the doctor on a bike…

The 'elderly parent to the doctor' case is still an argument for bike infrastructure. The more people choose to travel by bike instead of by car, the more space is available on the roads for those that need motor vehicles.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#127

Post by hgomersall » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #109

wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

I think the question that anyone that rejects cars would ask is "why do you choose to live 60km from your work?".

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#128

Post by spyremeown » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

kensai wrote: post #103

digdugdirk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace the words "the car" with "good public transit" and your last paragraph makes equal if not more sense. There's different ways of living a life, and the current trend shouldn't be seen as car demonization. I see it more as a new generation seeing the current US car-centric society and pushing for a better (for the life they want to live) alternative.

It depends where you live. Good public transit is unfortunately the exception in many places and not the rule. Cars are still needed in many use cases.

You're almost getting it. So, so close.

>Good public transit is unfortunately the exception in many places and not the rule.

Then let's make it better! :-)

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#129

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:37 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #56

revscat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average American spends $3000 a year on gas. Imagine if you didn’t have to do that.

I do ~23000mi/yr (way above average) commuting at 23mpg (somewhat below average) and gas here is about $3/gal (average) so I pay about $3k/yr. I am nowhere near typical. There is no way the average American pays that much for just gas unless the source is doing some slight of hand. Obviously I pay more than $3k/yr after you include other expenses but still, few are buying that much fuel. I used to take the train when…

> @$350/mo or $4200/yr for a pass (which also covers the subway and buses) it's basically a break even vs driving.

Cost-wise, yes but there are other benefits.

I live in rural MN and used to commute to downtown Minneapolis about 40 miles away. It was far more convenient, not to mention much faster, to drive to an express bus stop and take the bus into the city than to drive. The 6 block walk to the office sucked sometimes when it was raining or -20F but not having to deal with traffic, plus the reduction of wear and tear on my car was well worth the minor inconvenience.

Now, I realize that's an ideal situation: having a bus 15 minutes away and a relatively short distance between the bus stop and my destination, but it's possible. Cities can do this: Minneapolis has streets that are bus-only at rush hour to speed up transit -- cars will get ticketed if the cops see them. The Metro area has a large number of bus routes between suburbs and even to the edge of the ex-urban areas. There was a big push around 20 years ago to improve transit and it's definitely paying off, but it takes commitment and patience that I guess a lot of other areas in the country don't have.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#130

Post by speeder » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 1:37 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #109

wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

The US anti-car narrative often refers to the Netherlands as some kind of beacon of proper public infrastructure, whilst not knowing a damn thing about it. First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country. We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Public transport is rarely faster, not even in…

That is not a car country.

São Paulo has more car than population, and has so many cars that their area summed is bigger than the area of all streets in the city.

It is so many cars that sometimes walking 1 hour to your workplace is faster than a car route where you can spend 2, 3 hours to go to a neighborhood next to yours during rush hour.

So many cars that the city became also the city with most helicopters, because as ludicrously expensive they are, for people that need to reach their workplace really fast (CEO, firemen, medics...) helicopters are good idea.

Situation got so bad that the government wants to heavily restrict the use of helicopters because private helicopters were causing literally airborne traffic jams along the normal traffic jam, blocking public services like police from moving to emergency sites.

EDIT: indeed I was talking about adults, forgot to make it clear. Still the percentage of cars to people in Brazil tends to be high. It is one of the reasons car companies love Brazil. There are historical reasons for that. Mostly politics related.