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BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

theguardian.com

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Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#411
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to criticize the president is not what's important here, and in fact a focus on that as being some sort of golden metric is also another hurdle in properly understanding China. This is part of the typical "dictatorship-vs-democracy" dichotomy thought that I'm criticizing for not being a good fit for China. Concretely: yes in China there is censorship, and yes you can't just criticize the president. Howeve…

> In contrast, in many western countries you certainly have the freedom to complain about more things, but your ability to get policy changes is almost non-existant. Citation needed. Western policy changes happen all the time due to protests, all across the West.

Citation needed? Black Lives Matter. What concretely changed? Police brutality did not stop.

Look around you. More and more people are disillusioned by the fact that they can't get meaningful positive changes.

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#412
post #358
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people in US prisons are there for drug related offenses, which were invented precisely to jail the black population. And while you probably can’t be jailed for praying, you definitely can be put there for rough sleeping or many other non-crimes invented for that specific purpose. But you are right it’s not directly comparable - the usual American way of dealing with the Uighur ethnic group is killing them from…

If you had looked at the link I shared you see that only 20% of US prisoners are there for any charge related to drugs and most of them have multiple priors. The policies were not invented to "ail the black population" this is patently false. The war on drugs was championed among others by figures like Jesse Jackson and the whole of the Congressional Black Caucus in the 1980s. > But you are right it’s not directly co…

Not the guy you're replying to, but I take issue with "it's gross that you're trying to defend it".

"Locking up 3 million people" is a false claim. If you look into the source of the claim that "1 million people" are locked up then you'll see that that's based on interviewing around 10 people, and then extrapolating their villages' figures to the whole of Xinjiang. The quality is evidence is so bad that even the Uyghur Tribunal failed to provide any evidence for the "1 million people" figure, but they still concluded "genocide" despite lack of evidence.

This "3 million people" figure that you cite now is absolutely without evidence. It's just the media taking the "1 million" figure and then sensationally inflating it, until finally people like you take "3 million" as a fact.

Calling it "[genocide] denial" (sic) is a way to shut down conversation and to dismiss counter-evidence and criticism out of hand.

Was the poster defending Chinese crimes? I see it entirely differently: he's pointing out double standards which is completely legit, even necessary. Let's say that China and the US are both bad. But only one of them is painted as a genocidal fascist expansionist existential threat. There can be no honest conversation about China until double standards are destroyed.

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You invoke whataboutism, but mentioning the US here is absolutely relevant because US officials have admitted on video that an important reason why they were in Afghanistan was to encourage Uyghur extremism, forcing China to respond with anti-terrorism measures.

Imagine your neighbor funding your enemies to harass you. You take measures against the harassers, but you had to resort to some dirty tricks and had to overrespond to make them stop. Your neighbor then reports you for those dirty tricks and overresponse in which you violated some laws. Yes you were absolutely wrong for violating laws, but you are also right in pointing out that your neighbor instigated the situation. Calling out your neighbor is not whataboutism, it's essential context. I don't think you think will appreciate people who deliberately ignore your neighbor's contribution and only focus on you.

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hesitate to characterize everything happening as fascist since that's a loaded term and I think it brings in a lot of baggage when transposed cross-culturally that confuses more than it clears up. I think there has been a rise in extremism and political violence that is largely, but not exclusively, driven by the hard right. And I think Modi has a particularly callous, realpolitik approach to governance that…

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. Why do you feel it necessary to deflect criticisms instead of addressing them directly? The purported rigging of elections in the US does not justify the eroding of democratic institutions in India [0]. Claims of increasing evangelism and strictness among Christians and Muslims doesn’t justify the large number of public lynchings of minorities [1] and politically motivated prosecut…

There is no deflection. I was pretty clear about erosion of democratic norms being bad in both places. I made a comparison to provide a sense of perspective as to scale and then said the BJP wins fair elections to illustrate that conflating them with the right in America leads to bad misconceptions. The right wing in the US plays from a position of weakness. They only have institutional power due to the counter-majoritarianism in our system and their ideology is completely hollowed out. This is also what drives them to attack democratic or non-political institutions because they have no ability to retain power otherwise. They know they're a generation away from irrelevance and are desperate.

The right wing in India plays from a position of electoral strength and they have a clearly defined ideology with an evidently compelling narrative. They have well articulated things they're fighting FOR, not just an inchoate ball of resentments they're lashing out against. They are simply more concerned with functioning governance and having a political system that works than the Republicans are because they expect to live out the next 100 years.

Because they are electorally competitive they do not meaningfully threaten free and fair elections. They threaten a specific cluster of civil society organizations that are politically hostile to them (and, just so we're clear, I think this is bad too) but that's a completely different and more solvable problem. Over the next 10-15 years I worry more about the long-term health of American democracy than I do India's. India's problems are more of a 50 year horizon depending on whether the bad trends soften or harden over time.

India suffers from illiberalism, not authoritarianism. The seeds were sown before Modi's political career ever got started. The Congress party was buying votes by currying favor with caste-based parties and religious leaders, building the salience of these factors in political organizing. The norms of censoring media due to public outrage were already well established in the early 2000s when Christian and Muslim leaders organized to ban controversial media like "The Da Vinci Code" and "Satanic Verses." This isn't whataboutism, but a demonstration that when international activists frame this as a uniquely BJP or Hindutva problem, it doesn't exactly look like they're prepared to grapple with how deep the problem actually goes and care more about scoring political points.

I mentioned how the boundaries between religious communities were porous when I was a kid for a reason. The only solution is to reduce the salience of communal ID as a cleavage point. You have to hamstring regressive goons across the board, you can't be particularistic it just doesn't work.

It was a low blow for you to say I was "excusing lynching" by mentioning fundamentalism. I never said anything of the sort. You seem to view different religious communities as if they live on different planets and make decisions in isolation. These are the same people living in the same world and are all reacting the same way to the same cultural forces. Only directing the treatment at conservative Hindus is like only treating the orange cattle in the herd. They're just going to keep getting sick from the others. They pick up behaviors and respond to their surroundings. This is how the RSS started. Yeah it was modeled on Mussolini's party, but it is also true that it was a counter-reaction to the Moplah Massacre. You could tell a story that paints Savarkar as Huey Newton as easily as Mussolini and you'd only be about 10% less right. These sorts of people feed off each other and you cannot just expect one religious community to cast off its nutcases while allowing others to write the civil code and get government grants. Americans have a really reductive approach to power dynamics between races that buckets everything into White oppressors and non-White oppressed classes. It's a crude oversimplification here, but it is hilariously out of touch in India. There are a lot of overlapping dimensions of identity and everyone is a minority along at least one of them. There is a bottomless well of history for people to harbor resentments over, with plenty of justified grievances to go around.

> Several organizations have recognized this deterioration of Democratic institutions and adjusted their ratings accordingly [0].

I put it right in the start that there's been attacks on civil society and breakdown in social trust and political violence so I don't know why you're claiming I'm ignoring this. I will still stress that these adjustments are not uncontroversial, even within those organizations. In the actual text of the Freedom House report they point out that while the trend-line is bad the downgrade is partly a quirk of their methodology which doesn't handle edge cases well. The "Partly free" rating makes it look overly severe, and something as simple as using a 5 point scale instead of a 4 point one would have avoided it.

I sincerely do not believe a genocide is in the cards and people need to cool it. Violent riots and vigilanteism ARE going to happen, but that actually calls for a different set of interventions that revolve around professionalizing the police force, tackling corruption, speeding up timelines to prosecution and trial, and creating more jobs and opportunity for young men and women. The worst case scenario you are looking at is something more like the the post-Reconstruction American South than Rwanda or Kosovo in the 90s, or even Pakistan in the 40s and that's only if they fail at doing all of the above. (And I feel ridiculous needing to stress that the post-Reconstruction South was not good! But there are many different ways to not be good, some worse than others. And they require different responses.)

> The term fascism is not used flippantly [2]. The RSS was modeled on Mussolini’s National Fascist Party. The RSS and the currently ruling BJP have a symbiotic relationship.

And it has evolved substantially in the nearly 100 years since then. We might as well be talking about how the Democrats used to be the party of slavery and Hitler modeled his Jewish policy on their model of segregation. The organization itself is enormous, and is affiliated with everything from priests who go around serving free school lunches to goon squads that go around beating up couples for holding hands on Valentine's Day. It is partly due to this big tent and their reformist streaks on social issues like casteism and LGBTQ+ rights that the more extreme wings think the RSS has "gone soft."

FWIW I'd see Modi as a Latin American caudillo type, like Juan Perón minus military regalia (who I will also stress WAS NOT GOOD). But even that's an imperfect analogy for a host of reasons.

> The international community is not trying to perpetuate colonialism or hold India to a unique standard. . .They want a vibrant trading partner that upholds human rights and rule of law.

Firstly, upholding human rights and rule of law has never been a prerequisite for being a trading partner with the USA. Depending on what you're trading, it is as likely to be a detriment as anything.

Secondly, India has been held to a unique standard by the international community since independence. This is nothing new. Most recently the international community said and did nothing when Chinese forces illegally initiated skirmishes on the Indian side of a disputed border, but mere months later got on India's case about the importance of upholding a "rules based international order" when Russia illegally invaded Ukraine. Narendra Modi was banned from entry into the United States, an unprecedented action to take against a foreign politician that we have never done before or since. Now he's not a great guy, but I will wear my keyboard out and not even get a fraction of the way through a list of deplorable leaders who would have been more deserving, starting with MBS on the night he dismembered an American journalist. Things like this make it difficult for even centrist or liberal Indians to take US based international organizations seriously. These antics have severely eroded their credibility when they try to raise alarms about things like the subject of this article.

For whatever it's worth I think India SHOULD be held to unique standards because it's got a billion people and if it ever bothered to project diplomatic influence it would exert enormous pull. But the hectoring tone that international organizations adopt reads as condescending, hypocritical, and filtered through the biases of a narrow clade of English media figures rather than coming from any position principled concern. All of this, obviously, makes it difficult for anyone who gives a shit to operate.

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it could create communal disharmony and doesn't actually provide any further court admissible evidence.

So you agree that tax officials are being used to harass them for the documentary? > it could create communal disharmony and doesn't actually provide any further court admissible evidence. I'll wait for these tax officials to raid OpIndia and SwarajyaMag's offices soon as well then.

[dead]

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#416
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who "led ethnic massacres"? Why did you redact the link? Seems a bit odd for such a specific and strong accusation against some unknown person?

The link was redacted once I'd allowed about 32 Gb worth of illegal downloads off my private server, elucidating which known person led which ethnic massacres. [edit] please review the context of this thread and/or watch the BBC documentary in question for a deeper understanding of the topic.

I have no idea what you're even on about any more; you're talking in riddles with vague references to this and that, but nowhere is it clear what you actually mean.

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you are projecting Russia and Soviet Union onto China again. Yet where is your evidence that the projection is remotely fitting? I cited a source: prominent statesman Kishore Mahbubani who testifies that the Soviet Union is not at all comparable to China. With your point wrt Taiwan you seem to be saying that if anti-war protests are suppressed then that is evidence that the country is a dictatorship. But the pro…

> With your point wrt Taiwan you seem to be saying that if anti-war protests are suppressed then that is evidence that the country is a dictatorship. But the problem is that many countries — even western ones — suppresses dissent once they enter a war. Heck Germany is not even officially at war but anyone voicing public support for Russia can be legally reprimanded. I bring up Russia because it's the authoritarian go…

I understand you are familiar with Russia. But China is not Russia. You don't know China. By your reasoning ("Russia was X so China must also be X"), WW2 Germany (a democracy) was fascist therefore all other democracies must be fascist too.

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In Germany, displaying the letter "Z" in a way that is meant to show support for Russia can lead to up to 3 years in prison: https://www.rnd.de/politik/z-symbol-strafbar-bis-zu-drei-jah...

"Mehrere Bundesländer haben bereits angekündigt, das öffentliche Zeigen des Symbols zu ahnden. Grundlage ist der Paragraf 140 im Strafgesetzbuch zur „Billigung von Straftaten“. Demnach kann dies mit bis zu drei Jahren Haft oder einer Geldstrafe bestraft werden"

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The famine was a result of inexperienced governance in peace time, not "authoritarian policies". Just like the Irish potato famine was not a result of "democratic policies".

The Cultural Revolution was not a display of authoritarian power. Instead, it was mob rule fueled by revolutionary zeal. During the Cultural Revolution, the state was largely non-functional. Many people joined Mao's campaigns willingly, as opposed to Mao sending his army to force people at gunpoint to do things.

The Cultural Revolution was an attempt to fix a broken country, by leaders who had little experience with peacetime operations. Today, Mao's mistakes are officially recognized. Both good and bad came out of the Cultural Revolution: there was a famine, but life expectancy also rose by more than a decade. One also has to keep in mind that famines were a regular thing in China during previous rulers, so with this context one can say that that famine was the last one China ever had. Given all this, to then describe the Cultural Revolution and the famine as "authoritarian rule" is hugely reductionist and misleading.

The sort of reductionist rhetoric you employ can just as easily be applied to democracies. Nobody was accountable for when the British Empire put China on drugs. Nobody was accountable for the Iraq war. By your own reasoning, "democratic policies" lead to imperialism — a wrong conclusion due to reductionism.

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if something actually dangerous, like sticks of dynamite, is discovered in some office?

Probably the building is evacuated and the dangerous thing secured by specialists E.g. a bomb squad. Then the same thing. The police and the prosecution find out if this was illegal, if the possession is illegal, who possesed if and who brought it and why, then who is responsible and a court decides if someone is guilty. The court will decide if the company is responsible E.g. because of negligence, they might not ha…

Okay so my point stands?

The company is always ultimately responsible for whatever is discovered on their premises by default.

Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there is a rise in fascist actions and rhetoric in India? And that the majority of Indians are threatened by this? Thanks for correcting me on OBC and Dalits. The framework is definitely problematic. And it adds another layer of complexity to racial, religious, and economic demographics. Thanks for prompting me to learn more about this. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/attitudes-ab...

I would hesitate to characterize everything happening as fascist since that's a loaded term and I think it brings in a lot of baggage when transposed cross-culturally that confuses more than it clears up. I think there has been a rise in extremism and political violence that is largely, but not exclusively, driven by the hard right. And I think Modi has a particularly callous, realpolitik approach to governance that…

> they don't seem to really be engaged in the kinds of election rigging we see from right-wing parties in other countries with creeping authoritarian movements (like the USA). They actually win fair elections straight up, without leaning on counter-majoritarian institutions or voter suppression schemes like our own GOP rely on.

This is common for creeping authoritarianism, though. Putin won his first presidential election fair and square, and the first thing that he cracked down on was free press, not elections themselves. I'd say that the latter were not massively fraudulent until 2011.

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