Some of humanities best and brightest are living in India right now. It’s sad that these people aren’t the ones running the country. The country deserves better than the old man who can’t stand before his own press, much of which is obligated to take his side. I hope that India can find somebody young and engaged to run the country when Modi retires. And not Yogi. That’d be much worse.
BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
351–360 of 425 posts
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I said earlier, I never claimed that China has no problems, and I welcome genuine efforts to improve the human rights situation in China. But current efforts are simply not genuine and are merely geopolitical attacks disguised as human rights concerns. To make a comparison: the US also has many grave human rights abuses, including jailing people for saying "too interesting" things. But the US is not painted as som…
> To make a comparison: the US also has many grave human rights abuses, including jailing people for saying "too interesting" things. The west is far bigger and more varied than the US. I'd love to see a defense of China that doesn't immediately delve into "US also bad" or "US made us bad".
The point isn't "the US also bad". The point is "the US is also bad and people/countries allow them to". Big distinction.
Yes the west is far bigger than the US. However the west is also broadly aligned with the US. Whereas e.g. western Europe condemns and even sanctions China for what it sees as human rights abuses, they look the other way when it comes to US abuses, giving no more than a "tssk". There has been no diplomatic sanctions against the US for its illegal Iraq invasion (amongst others). Worse, some of them even join the US, such as Australia who went to Afghanistan and then killed a bunch of children. The west is bigger but many are complicit.
Of course US crimes don't excuse Chinese crimes. But when double standards are so widespread, it's simply impossible to have any kind of honest or constructive discussion. The double standard must be destroyed first.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not, but I'm in contact with a Uyhur as well as a non-Uyghur Xinjiang resident, and I've researched this topic for a long time. See also my other reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34789836 TLDR: heavy-handed anti-terrorism response, even if it deserves criticism, is not at all the same as "millions in concentration camps", "forced labor" or even "genocide". Many allegations you read in the media are gra…
Modi apologists seem to make similar attacks on the media and the west. They claim that the media is biased and out to get him, any criticism of him is anti-national and so on. You're claiming that the Uighur women that got forcibly sterilized are terrorists? Modi similarly uses the terrorism bogeyman to suppress criticism. ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/10/how-terrorism-... ) And why isn't it easy for…
No that isn't what I said at all. I never said that Xinjiang is a "benign" situation, I said that Xinjiang's reality is very different from media reporting. Big difference. It's entirely possible for reality to be not benign, but also very far removed from the hellhole that's painted by media. Reality can be complex.
And no, I'm not claiming that Uyghur women who got sterilized are terrorists. I'm claiming that the entire story of there being widespread, systematic, forced sterilization for the purpose of genociding a people, is a false. The source for the forced sterilization claim is Adrien Zenz, who in his "research paper" said that IUD usage in Xinjing accounted for 80% of the country. But when you go to his cited source for that 80% figure, you see that the source actually said 8%. Then when some people made a fuss about that, he... wait for it... changed the 80% into 8% but did not change the paper's conclusion, and tried covering up the fact that he changed the paper at all! Meanwhile, no media is interested in reporting this.
"Modi apologists" have got absolutely nothing with me, but by citing them you're making the claim that everybody who claims that the media is biased is nuts. Then pray tell, what do you call media who looks the other way while a "researcher" fudges his numbers like that? What part of me pointing out shoddy research is "nationalism"?
I dare you to read Adrien Zenz's paper and tell me that it's reliable.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Also comparing anything going on in the US for the last 60 years to the genocide happening in Xinjiang is ridiculous on its face. Indeed - the fact that black people are being killed and incarcerated for their skin colour in USA is well documented, whereas the “genocide” is mostly just a propaganda tool.
> Indeed - the fact that black people are being killed and incarcerated for their skin colour in USA is well documented This is a total misreading of the situation. I'm not here to argue that the US has a perfect human rights record, but its an active topic of debate and reform are happening. Moreover, the idea that people are being incarcerated solely for their skin color is not "well documented" and strains creduli…
>reform are happening
Same as in China.
>factually that millions
The highest estimates, by Zenz, only go up to a million. And it’s not factual at all.
>eradicate the Uighur language
I suppose that’s why you have official Chinese banknotes with Uighur text on them, and that’s why Uighur kids are being taught their native language in schools.
>well documented cases of forced sterilization
We have the same in USA.
Generally speaking: you’re repeating rhetorics (propaganda) instead of focusing on verifiable information.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
>China has concentration camps. So does USA. It’s called the prison system. Except USA is imprisoning many more people, per capita.
US prisons are not concentration camps. The majority of people in US prisons have committed usually dozens of crimes and the plurality of inmates have committed violent crimes[1]. No one is in a US prison for praying, teaching their children a language the state disapproves of, or similar non-crimes. There are no forced sterilizations in US prisons. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2022.html
Many people in US prisons are there for drug related offenses, which were invented precisely to jail the black population. And while you probably can’t be jailed for praying, you definitely can be put there for rough sleeping or many other non-crimes invented for that specific purpose.
But you are right it’s not directly comparable - the usual American way of dealing with the Uighur ethnic group is killing them from safe distance (see Middle East), not incarceration.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#356[flagged]
There's, like, far more to the story. I suggest you watch the documentary, even if just to know which Modi actions and quotes you need to focus on obfuscating and distracting from.
It's pathetic: This has absolutely nothing to do with America, but they fall all over themselves to inform us AMERICA DO BAD THING.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Indeed - the fact that black people are being killed and incarcerated for their skin colour in USA is well documented This is a total misreading of the situation. I'm not here to argue that the US has a perfect human rights record, but its an active topic of debate and reform are happening. Moreover, the idea that people are being incarcerated solely for their skin color is not "well documented" and strains creduli…
>reform are happening Same as in China. >factually that millions The highest estimates, by Zenz, only go up to a million. And it’s not factual at all. >eradicate the Uighur language I suppose that’s why you have official Chinese banknotes with Uighur text on them, and that’s why Uighur kids are being taught their native language in schools. >well documented cases of forced sterilization We have the same in USA. Gener…
> Same as in China.
What reforms are happening in China> They're still pouring people into camps.
> The highest estimates, by Zenz, only go up to a million. And it’s not factual at all.
The zenz estimate for 2020 is 1.8 million, but estimates are as high as 3 million over several years plus half a million in special boarding schools. A total of 3 million Uighurs is fully 1/3 of their population in Xianjang.
> We have the same in USA.
No, there it literally no forced sterilization in US prisons. You're making that up.
Everyone but China agrees that they are committing genocide, this isn't propaganda.
> I suppose that’s why you have official Chinese banknotes with Uighur text on them, and that’s why Uighur kids are being taught their native language in schools.
There seems to be a lot of evidence to the contrary[1][2]
[1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
[2] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
[3] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
US prisons are not concentration camps. The majority of people in US prisons have committed usually dozens of crimes and the plurality of inmates have committed violent crimes[1]. No one is in a US prison for praying, teaching their children a language the state disapproves of, or similar non-crimes. There are no forced sterilizations in US prisons. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2022.html
Many people in US prisons are there for drug related offenses, which were invented precisely to jail the black population. And while you probably can’t be jailed for praying, you definitely can be put there for rough sleeping or many other non-crimes invented for that specific purpose. But you are right it’s not directly comparable - the usual American way of dealing with the Uighur ethnic group is killing them from…
If you had looked at the link I shared you see that only 20% of US prisoners are there for any charge related to drugs and most of them have multiple priors. The policies were not invented to "ail the black population" this is patently false. The war on drugs was championed among others by figures like Jesse Jackson and the whole of the Congressional Black Caucus in the 1980s.
> But you are right it’s not directly comparable - the usual American way of dealing with the Uighur ethnic group is killing them from safe distance (see Middle East), not incarceration.
Again you're engaged fully in whataboutism here. I get that you have a giant hate boner for the US, but you're spewing nonsense. I'm not here to justify the war in Iraq, it was wrong. But locking up 3 million people in your own territory for no reason and surveilling a whole population around the clock is pure evil. Its gross that you're trying to defend it.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I said earlier, I never claimed that China has no problems, and I welcome genuine efforts to improve the human rights situation in China. But current efforts are simply not genuine and are merely geopolitical attacks disguised as human rights concerns. To make a comparison: the US also has many grave human rights abuses, including jailing people for saying "too interesting" things. But the US is not painted as som…
> You got this entirely backwards. I did not: I am fully aware of this fact. However, while the majority of people in China may support a war with Taiwan, many will not. What will happen to those that oppose it? Will they be allowed to protest in the streets, or will they be brutally repressed? I know where I'd put my money. As to everything else, China should be commended for bringing so many people out of poverty.…
Here you are projecting Russia and Soviet Union onto China again. Yet where is your evidence that the projection is remotely fitting? I cited a source: prominent statesman Kishore Mahbubani who testifies that the Soviet Union is not at all comparable to China.
With your point wrt Taiwan you seem to be saying that if anti-war protests are suppressed then that is evidence that the country is a dictatorship. But the problem is that many countries — even western ones — suppresses dissent once they enter a war. Heck Germany is not even officially at war but anyone voicing public support for Russia can be legally reprimanded.
You also seem to ignore the aspect of whether people can actually enact policy changes. People protesting against the Middle Eastern wars didn't prevent them. What use is the ability to protest when they don't change anything?
I really don't know why everybody obsesses about Xi's term limits as if that's some sinister sign. Observe that Xi has been around for about as long as Merkel and Kohl.
More generally, all this talk about "authoritarian regimes" is projecting something into China which does not fit. Observe the fact that the late Qing dynasty and the Republic of China were extremely weak, and look where that got us: poor, exploited by foreign democratic powers. When you look at the past 2000 years of Chinese history then you see that prosperous times come when central government is strong. Conversely, when central government is weak, the people suffer. Whatever problems you have with Russia and Soviet Union should not be projected onto China. Whatever problems the west had with strong governments should not automatically mean that China's biggest problems are the same. We've had more problems with not having enough state power than too much state power.
Re: BBC offices in India raided by tax officials amid Modi documentary fallout
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You got this entirely backwards. I did not: I am fully aware of this fact. However, while the majority of people in China may support a war with Taiwan, many will not. What will happen to those that oppose it? Will they be allowed to protest in the streets, or will they be brutally repressed? I know where I'd put my money. As to everything else, China should be commended for bringing so many people out of poverty.…
Here you are projecting Russia and Soviet Union onto China again. Yet where is your evidence that the projection is remotely fitting? I cited a source: prominent statesman Kishore Mahbubani who testifies that the Soviet Union is not at all comparable to China. With your point wrt Taiwan you seem to be saying that if anti-war protests are suppressed then that is evidence that the country is a dictatorship. But the pro…
> With your point wrt Taiwan you seem to be saying that if anti-war protests are suppressed then that is evidence that the country is a dictatorship. But the problem is that many countries — even western ones — suppresses dissent once they enter a war. Heck Germany is not even officially at war but anyone voicing public support for Russia can be legally reprimanded.
I bring up Russia because it's the authoritarian government I'm most familiar with. An authoritarian government doesn't "reprimand" people when it needs consent for a given policy: it imprisons them or worse. You can see this happening in Russia today with anti-war protests, where dissenters are thrown into prison for years or even sent to the front. I believe similar things were happening to the protesters in HK when China took over. Are you saying people won't be imprisoned for protesting military action in Taiwan? I find that unlikely.
If I lived in Germany, no part of me would fear imprisonment if I voiced support for Russia. (Though it's likely somebody would kick my ass.)
> I really don't know why everybody obsesses about Xi's term limits as if that's some sinister sign.
Why did he do it if not to consolidate power?
> Observe the fact that the late Qing dynasty and the Republic of China were extremely weak, and look where that got us — poor, exploited.
Authoritarian policies also got you the Great Chinese Famine, leading to tens of millions of lives pointlessly thrown away. Was anyone held accountable? The answer is no, because an authoritarian government's "strength" is also its weakness when fault lies with the strongman at the helm. (As an aside, Yang Jisheng is the author of perhaps the most comprehensive account of the famine, "Tombstone." Are there any universities in China teaching his work? Are his books even allowed to be published?)