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Let Teenagers Sleep

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Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#371

Post by kingbirdy »

crazygringo wrote: post #332

I seriously don't understand why schools don't simply swap elementary and high school schedules. When I grew up, and what seems to still be the common pattern, is that the buses go out first for high schoolers to start school early, then do a second route to pick up the elementary schoolers who start school later. Can't we just swap those? Elementary school kids wake up earlier naturally, and this helps the parents w…

You're missing two things, one for each age group:

For the younger kids, each hour earlier they start is an hour earlier they finish, which means parents need to either finish work earlier (not possible for most people), or pay for an additional hour of after-school child care (expensive). Having free child care to cover the gap between school finishing and work finishing is extremely rare, and the acceptable age to leave your child unattended after school is going up due to over protective parenting (for example, I was a latchkey kid starting in the 3rd grade, but nowadays that seems almost unheard of until middle school).

For the older kids, starting later means sports / extracurriculars finish later, potentially after dark or after the parents are done working and expect kids to be coming home.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#372

Post by kingbirdy »

juve1996 wrote: post #74
exfatloss wrote: post #2

Can't stress enough how important this is. People's circadian rhythms shift with age, and during teenage years, they are the latest (or most "night owl"-like). Current school times practically guarantee that teenagers will be too tired and sleep-deprived to learn much.

And yet many teenagers do just fine and end up learning a lot. How do they manage? Are they tired? Do they have magical circadian rhythms?

Yes, high-achieving teenagers are mostly tired all the time

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#373

Post by bee_rider »

rcpt wrote: post #130
avgcorrection wrote: post #93

Pet peeve of mine: some older adults are proud that they get up early. And that’s OK in isolation. The problem though is that older adults rule society moreso than younger adults, and certainly compared to teenagers. So for many older adults it feels natural to go to bed early and to get up early. But then we as a society confuse that with universal “good behavior”/good character, so everyone has to dance to that tun…

We have ceded far too much power to the morning people.

Back in caveman times, somebody had to stay up to tend the fire and keep watch. Unfortunately in the world of houses and locks, the daytime people don’t need us anymore, and since they get up first they set the agenda.

Should have let the leopards eat them.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#374

Post by [deleted] »

zip1234 wrote: post #155
yamtaddle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is heavily resisted by sports parents, especially. They like the extra afternoon time after school that an early start provides. It's one of the main reasons I've seen these kinds of proposals shot down before it could really get going, locally. > everyone leaves for school at the same time, so if you move grade 9 forward an hour, you have to do the same with grade 4 to get any benefit; the 9th grader is taking th…

Sports have become way too important in high school. In addition to bad ideas about start times, site selection for schools based on having huge amounts of land for sports fields means far away schools instead of being centrally located near a lot of people so students can walk to school easily.

[deleted]

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#376

Post by kelseyfrog »

tptacek wrote: post #325
kelseyfrog wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both parents work because prices adjust to demand. That is, if both parents work, prices can rise because demand rises (remember demand is the desire to buy, but also the ability to pay). When prices rise, this puts an even greater pressure on single income families. ie: their single income has to be stretched father because they are competing with two income demand. This is economics 101. While two incomes increases…

Nah. This sounds plausible, but it flunks an obvious empirical check: families where one earner brings in all the meaningful income and the other earner makes barely enough more to pay for the child care costs their work incurs. I know a bunch of families like this. Surely some parents work because they have to, but it's also obvious that many other parents work because that's what they need to do to lead a fulfillin…

> I know a bunch of families like this.

I'm not arguing that all families make the decision to become dual-income households. I'm arguing that there are major economic incentives that push people toward dual-income. This allows for your experience and the observation of counter-examples to co-exist with broad social shifts in family-work structure. The reason it appears true is because it is.

You don't have to accept my word for it.

The other possibility is reading what economists have to say[1] about the effects of inflationary pressures on household income structures. Sorry, but I'm going to put more trust in an expert than someone with anecdotal evidence.

1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/088636871990003...

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#377

Post by steve_adams_86 »

Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #218
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no aversion to trades and actually worked in joinery for many years before I began programming professionally. I don’t mean to look down on it at all. I actually find it absurd that I earn as much as I do compared to say, a red seal carpenter here in Canada where their breadth of skill and knowledge means more and accomplishes more than my own skill set in very tangible and crucial ways. If I could support my…

Oh just to clarify - I didn’t think you were looking down on the trades at all, it’s the sentiment expressed by the school guidance counsellor that I found strange. I’ve heard it is a very culturally-dependent thing, to be fair. Your comment reminded me of going with my dad to a place that had a huge laser-cutting machine when I was young. They were awesome!

I totally agree, the sentiment is strange. I've noticed that it seems to be shifting; when I was a teen there was an obsession with becoming a knowledge worker of some sort and getting an education. That fever appears to be subsiding now, and I hope that's reflected in how rewarding and sustainable trades careers can be in the near future here. In my city it would be quite difficult a the moment to get by in most trades without dual incomes, and you'd need to live away from any central schools. Buying a home is nearly impossible without a 150k+ CAD income, and the trades will rarely get you half way there without significant experience.

Something that blew my mind recently is that I left joinery with a job earning about 65k CAD per year (around 2008). I recently met a guy getting his red seal and he earns about 62k CAD. He hopes to hit 80k within a few years of getting his seal by making lateral moves and bargaining better, but isn't certain it's even possible. This is insane to me. Not only has the value of his work decreased, but even with better credentials than I had he's earning less. This is the completely wrong direction for things to go!

I was also shocked to find that he spends about 36% of his pre-tax income on rent, and when I was earning 65k I was spending about 8% of my pre-tax income on rent. I lived an hour away and shared rent with a room mate in a small house, whereas he lives alone in a small apartment in our expensive city. But wow. What a striking difference; it almost seems impossible to get ahead despite that he's educated, competent, and working hard at improving himself. I feel like that needs to change or we won't see kids move into the trades and, you know, hold up our society here!

Also I totally agree about giant laser cutters. I can't get enough of CNC machines of all sorts. I really, really want to build one some day.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#378

Post by hcurtiss »

scruple wrote: post #287
gabereiser wrote: post #57

The real blame for early high school is extra-curricular sports. Basketball, Football, etc. For those sports to thrive, teams need to practice, in order for practice to be efficient, it needs to be at least an hour. So 2 hours are allocated (suit up, practice, suit down). In order for children to be able to commit to 2 hours extra of their time BEFORE their parents get home (5pm), class would have to end by 3pm. Now,…

I agree with your specific point but my experience with obscene lack of sleep during my high school years was owed to extracirculars in general. On top of athletics, I was also part of Men's Glee (and symphony choir, and swing choir for a year) in high school. Men's Glee formed while I was in the 10th grade and the only time we had to practice was before classes because all of us were also already involved in other s…

My experience was similar. Honors choir 6:45-7:45, school from 8:00-3:15, athletics (basketball, football, or track) from 3:30-5:30, and theater from 6:00-8:00. With homework on top, those were very long days.

Why did I do it? To distinguish myself from the masses with the hope of landing scholarships. And it worked. Only paid for state school, but things have turned out well twenty-five years later. hard work pays off. Yes, I would have rather slept in. I'm glad I didn't.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#379

Post by Riseed »

geraldwhen wrote: post #348
joezydeco wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When college costs six figures, you hope to break even. And that's a whole different ball of wax in America.

Most state universities cost nothing near this, especially if you discount room and board. You need to live somewhere and eat, so it’s not sensible to include those costs with the cost of college.

While students need somewhere to sleep and eat, the cost of doing so on campus are much higher than anywhere else (in my limited experience). For example, the cost of on-campus room and board my junior year was 4x the cost of my off-campus room and board the following year. Some schools don't allow for off-campus housing for some or all students, or still require commuters to purchase a meal plan. So perhaps while it's not sensible to include all room and board costs with the cost of college, it's definitely fair to include some or even most.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep

#380

Post by _carbyau_ »

oblio wrote: post #322
gabereiser wrote: post #57

The real blame for early high school is extra-curricular sports. Basketball, Football, etc. For those sports to thrive, teams need to practice, in order for practice to be efficient, it needs to be at least an hour. So 2 hours are allocated (suit up, practice, suit down). In order for children to be able to commit to 2 hours extra of their time BEFORE their parents get home (5pm), class would have to end by 3pm. Now,…

It's not that... it's parents' start times at work. A lot of places have very rigid work schedules and schools need to account for a certain percentage of parents dropping kids off and then driving to school. Kids are sacrificed because, surprise-surprise, they have no real say in the matter.

I kindly disagree with your last statement as I see it clashing with the rest of your comment.

Kids are powerless in the decision making. Most guardians/parents are too.

As you alluded to, "both parents working" + "commute time" = outcome.

This is the rat race in action. Everyone wanting to one up everyone else. To be the top %. To get into the best colleges etc. And so it goes.

I don't see a solution unless it somehow rewrites the rules of the rat race. IE government communal action.

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