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Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

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Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#81
post #7

In its current state, yes, but ChatGPT is only just he beginning and we can't even fathom what's next in the area of AI.

We have been waiting for AIs and neural networks to explain themselves transparently for decades. Given that they still cannot do this, then it means you cannot trust its output and its decisions.

They have a long way to go, but ChatGPT's and LLMs use-cases are limited outside of anything serious or trustworthy. There is nothing revolutionary about a AI SaaS.

What is 'revolutionary' or game changing is an open source equivalent of ChatGPT; like what Stable Diffusion did to DALLE-2.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#82

This thread is already full of people throwing in their cheap takes by reading the headline or not even that. Listen to his answers. He's not making controversial claims, excepting the one that LLMs teach us nothing about language. He says: - ChatGPT makes it easier to cheat. This is obviously true. - ChatGPT is a method of avoiding learning. In the context of the interview he's referring to its use not as an informa…

Chomsky's universal grammar vs. the probabilistic model behind tools like ChatGPT or Google Translate is a pretty old debate.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#83

This thread is already full of people throwing in their cheap takes by reading the headline or not even that. Listen to his answers. He's not making controversial claims, excepting the one that LLMs teach us nothing about language. He says: - ChatGPT makes it easier to cheat. This is obviously true. - ChatGPT is a method of avoiding learning. In the context of the interview he's referring to its use not as an informa…

Chomsky's universal grammar vs. the probabilistic model behind tools like ChatGPT or Google Translate is a pretty old debate.

Yes I know, that's why I said it seems controversial.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#84
post #64

You learn a lot from ChatGPT though. If you want to know the ordinary answer to some essay question, cgpt will give you that. If you leave it at that and hand it in, maybe Chomsky is right. But it's also a essay writing productivity tool. You sketch out what you want mentioned and cgpt will fill in the gaps, like those apprentices that helped the renaissance masters. I keep coming back to the phrase "small intentions…

> after your primary school years, you get a calculator to work out the arithmetic Do we? I do a lot of mental arithmetic as a software developer. When I was an exchange student my host-dad was an engineer and he was incredibly good at it. As he was thinking through a problem he'd do all sorts of ballpark math to get a feel for things. Eventually, yes, the numbers would all get crunched properly. But even then he'd a…

> A person who uses a calculator for everything starting from a young age just doesn't develop that skill.

But is that a reasonable fear? It's actually quite hard to use a tool without understanding it, so you won't get a lot of people reliant on calculators who don't understand calculation. I've certainly never met someone for whom it was a problem.

About using tools you don't understand, this is easy to try. Get some film editing software or 3D rendering software (assuming you don't know this area, like me) and see where you get to. I've never been able to use a tool without understanding at least something about what it does.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#85

ChatGPT's ability to mass produce content just demonstrates the banality of most content. Ditto DALL-E et al. It reminds me of Dadaism. With the algorithms are the critics, vs the artists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada -- I also agree with other critical hot takes, like Ted Chiang's analogy "ChatGPT is jpeg style compression for text". A less accusatory framing than Chomsky's plagiarism thesis, more or less. --…

> Did adoption of calculators lead to less learning of arithmetic. Certainly. Was that a bad thing? I honestly don't know. IMO it was bad for individuals, good for society. People are innumerate and that is exploited by people selling products and services.

It is not obvious to me why I should believe people were more numerate in the past.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#86
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technology allows someone with 4 hrs of training to accomplish what it took a master with 20 years in close to the same time. Is this rhetorical hyperbole or do you have a real example of an endeavor where a four hour novice is now the equal of a 20 year master thanks to technology?

Assembly line work replacing artisans and craftsman. The skills required to build a desk 300 years ago are very different than the skill inputs. Many construction jobs have seen a replacement of carpenters and masons with lower skilled workers due to pre-fabrication. Fast food workers replacing chefs and cooks. Taxi drivers being replaced with Uber drivers.

I don’t see the fry cook at McDonalds as doing the same thing as Julia Child.

Uber drivers are on average considerably less familiar with their cities than taxi drivers, at least in cities like London that still have meaningful standards.

Likewise hauling a double-wide to a plot isn’t the same activity as building a house.

It appears to me that your argument either fails or is rhetorical hyperbole when comparing like for like. For example, I have no doubt that a cabinet maker today using advanced power tools could make a cabinet of at least equal quality as a master using hand tools in considerably less time and even with a lower skill level. But that power tool using cabinet maker still wouldn’t be remotely close to a four hour novice.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#87
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

generalizations dont apply to individuals, but its correct people , in general, like to jump on any opportunity not to learn but just to use something. that being said id expect most ppl lurking around NH not to feel that generalization applies to them... but they do use intellisense, ides, stack overflow, good etc. rather than taking the long road. up to a certain point that is ok, aslong as u are aware which corner…

It's not just ok it's great. an enormous amount of progress in civilization is due to down skilling. Technology allows someone with 4 hrs of training to accomplish what it took a master with 20 years in close to the same time.

Sounds like Idiocracy and The Machine Stops had a lovechild.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're advocating a system of education, thinking, and work that is exemplified by 'Software Architecture Astronauts', people who have not recently or ever contended with the details, the nuts and bolts, of actual software development and maintenance. To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd. This would have seen me absolutely fail my c…

Well I didn't say you should never concern yourself with the details. But at some point in your life you will have gone through the details so often you won't be getting them wrong, but you'll still be spending a lot of time on them. With a tool like cgpt you can save yourself a lot of time. Of course it's up to you where you take the trade. If your thing is a medical device that will kill someone if it isn't checked…

Right, it seems like you're advocating ChatGPT as an information retreival tool, which seems perfectly acceptable. Looking up exact dates and names is tedious.

By "filling in the details" I thought you were referring more generally to the essay writing process, where the structure of an essay is its skeleton and the "details" are the just as essential pieces of argumentation and evidence.

If you write a sociology, history, or philosophy essay, for example, writing the high level structure (intro, topic-sentence 1, topic-sentence 2, ..., conclusion) and then outsourcing the rest would be intellectually bankrupt. You can't understand produce a synthesis argument of Hume's The Wealth of Nations and Theory of Moral Sentiments with ChatGPT.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#89

You learn a lot from ChatGPT though. If you want to know the ordinary answer to some essay question, cgpt will give you that. If you leave it at that and hand it in, maybe Chomsky is right. But it's also a essay writing productivity tool. You sketch out what you want mentioned and cgpt will fill in the gaps, like those apprentices that helped the renaissance masters. I keep coming back to the phrase "small intentions…

It sounds like you're advocating a system of education, thinking, and work that is exemplified by 'Software Architecture Astronauts', people who have not recently or ever contended with the details, the nuts and bolts, of actual software development and maintenance. To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd. This would have seen me absolutely fail my c…

Great points! But I want to quibble with this a bit.

> To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd.

It is absurd. But it's also very common! There are an awful lot of people who have done very well not by understanding anything, but by posturing and performing. E.g., take the ghostwritten book. The books of many politicians from all parties could generously be called mediocre. But they don't need to create valuable intellectual work; they just need something anodyne and book-shaped with their name on it.

Surprisingly often, people get away with this kind of absurdity, especially when rich and/or powerful. Indeed, one of the fascinating things for me about Musk's ongoing clown show at Twitter is that we're getting a real-time look at what happens when somebody who refuses to contend with the details fools themself into thinking they know what's going on.

That totally matches my experience where Architecture Astronauts have free reign. They are rewarded not for making this work, but talking impressively about big things. So what they produce is a lot of talk. When it's implemented by actual developers, does it work out well? Usually not! But that doesn't matter, because the people who empower them are also people who talk impressively about big things without understanding them.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#90
post #78
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can do both, ChatGPT can code. So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests. The majority of the detractors of these models don't see the forest for the trees. It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing.

> So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests. Nah. This is just a new version of an old mistake, one people have been repeating for decades. People keep trying to come up with ways for people to "code" without understanding what's going on. Code generation wizards. Visual programming tools. Model driven architecture. And a bunch more. The hard part about making software isn…

My 8 year old asks you to look at from a different angle and evaluate what it can actually do right now.

I would add, just because someone made a prognostication decades ago does not invalidate the same prognostication now.

Have you tried it?

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