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Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

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Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#71

You learn a lot from ChatGPT though. If you want to know the ordinary answer to some essay question, cgpt will give you that. If you leave it at that and hand it in, maybe Chomsky is right. But it's also a essay writing productivity tool. You sketch out what you want mentioned and cgpt will fill in the gaps, like those apprentices that helped the renaissance masters. I keep coming back to the phrase "small intentions…

It sounds like you're advocating a system of education, thinking, and work that is exemplified by 'Software Architecture Astronauts', people who have not recently or ever contended with the details, the nuts and bolts, of actual software development and maintenance. To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd. This would have seen me absolutely fail my c…

Well I didn't say you should never concern yourself with the details.

But at some point in your life you will have gone through the details so often you won't be getting them wrong, but you'll still be spending a lot of time on them. With a tool like cgpt you can save yourself a lot of time.

Of course it's up to you where you take the trade. If your thing is a medical device that will kill someone if it isn't checked, maybe you carefully write the code yourself. If you're building some POC website, why not let the AI fill in a few API calls for you?

And don't forget, plenty of details are already outsourced. Entire reference books are full of details that we prefer not to keep memorized.

Plato:

“If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/259062-if-men-learn-this-it...

I'm advocating cgpt as a tool that allows you to spend more time at the level of abstraction that is appropriate for the problem. If you're writing an essay about the fall of Rome, you don't want to be spending loads of time finding the details of a reference (year published, secondary author's names, exact title...). You want to be talking about economics of the time, incentives for different groups in Roman society, and so on.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#72

People appear to be angry with Chomsky, but I do not understand the reason. If you want to learn anything about a topic, even a Wikipedia article is superior to ChatGPT. The whole allure of ChatGPT is that people develop a parasocial relationship and feel that they learn by communicating. That is of course an illusion.

> but I do not understand the reason.

Some people get mad if you talk down on their favorite new toy.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#73

ChatGPT's ability to mass produce content just demonstrates the banality of most content. Ditto DALL-E et al. It reminds me of Dadaism. With the algorithms are the critics, vs the artists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada -- I also agree with other critical hot takes, like Ted Chiang's analogy "ChatGPT is jpeg style compression for text". A less accusatory framing than Chomsky's plagiarism thesis, more or less. --…

> Did adoption of calculators lead to less learning of arithmetic.

There's discussion of this in the book The Shallows, which is a book that gives a good overview of the relationship between technology that augment our intellect and contemporary society.

The gist is that calculators where a boon to mathematical education, because they freed up students to spend more time working through the challenging abstract aspects of mathematics, and less time with the mechanics of arithmetic.

I don't see there being any analogy between using ChatGPT _as an essay writer_ and using a calculator. The essay writing itself is the substantive educational process, and so it cannot be outsourced. What is not the substantive part of the educational process is the actual production of the typed word, and so the use of a pen, typewriter, or computer keyboard is less material, though still absolutely relevant. The affect of the writing/typing tool on the essayist is also discussed in the book.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#74

I predict the rise of what I call "mental obesity". Once the need to perform physical work vanished, those who did not consciously decide to train had a much higher chance of becoming obese. I expect that the mental capacities of some people will become less by the same effect. What we will see is a separation between those who are taught why they write and decide to comply and those who just take the easy way out.

On the other hand you might also see an increased interest in doing things with your brain (e.g. writing poetry or jokes) because it's rewarding, much as you see now with interest in endurance sports, climbing, etc. Or the interest in hand making things now that we produce most things with highly scaled abd automated processes.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#75

ChatGPT's ability to mass produce content just demonstrates the banality of most content. Ditto DALL-E et al. It reminds me of Dadaism. With the algorithms are the critics, vs the artists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada -- I also agree with other critical hot takes, like Ted Chiang's analogy "ChatGPT is jpeg style compression for text". A less accusatory framing than Chomsky's plagiarism thesis, more or less. --…

> Did adoption of calculators lead to less learning of arithmetic. Certainly. Was that a bad thing? I honestly don't know. IMO it was bad for individuals, good for society. People are innumerate and that is exploited by people selling products and services.

I don't understand how you get from here:

> People are innumerate and that is exploited by people selling products and services.

to here:

> good for society

Did I misunderstand your argument?

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#76

I predict the rise of what I call "mental obesity". Once the need to perform physical work vanished, those who did not consciously decide to train had a much higher chance of becoming obese. I expect that the mental capacities of some people will become less by the same effect. What we will see is a separation between those who are taught why they write and decide to comply and those who just take the easy way out.

[flagged]

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#77

I predict the rise of what I call "mental obesity". Once the need to perform physical work vanished, those who did not consciously decide to train had a much higher chance of becoming obese. I expect that the mental capacities of some people will become less by the same effect. What we will see is a separation between those who are taught why they write and decide to comply and those who just take the easy way out.

Look at long term stats on mathematics ability and literacy in the rich western countries. It does not paint a good picture. Two things I know off the top of my head is that literacy scores in the SATs have trended slightly down over the past 40 years, for both low-achievers and high-achievers.[1]

Australia, one of the richest countries in the world, is experiencing a multi-decade decline in mathematical standing[2]. Australia is fabulously rich, but is doing a worse and worse job of producing citizens that are numerate and understand mathematics. I haven't looked at literacy performance in the country, but I'd guess it's declining like it is in the USA, as Australia is subject to broadly the same pressures of political-economy and technology.

1. Cultural Literacy by E.D Hirsch Jr

2. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/05/220517094842.h...

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#78
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're advocating a system of education, thinking, and work that is exemplified by 'Software Architecture Astronauts', people who have not recently or ever contended with the details, the nuts and bolts, of actual software development and maintenance. To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd. This would have seen me absolutely fail my c…

We can do both, ChatGPT can code. So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests. The majority of the detractors of these models don't see the forest for the trees. It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing.

> So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests.

Nah. This is just a new version of an old mistake, one people have been repeating for decades. People keep trying to come up with ways for people to "code" without understanding what's going on. Code generation wizards. Visual programming tools. Model driven architecture. And a bunch more.

The hard part about making software isn't writing a bit of starter code. What we saw with the "code wizard" approach is that somebody clueless could click some buttons and get something working. But then they couldn't maintain it. It just kicked the "understand what's going on" problem down the road from "I don't know how to start" to "I am now trapped in a hell of generated code and people are yelling at me".

If some particular application is so standard that it can be produced with only a shallow understanding of how software works, then the right thing isn't using ChatGPT to produce source code. It's when people who have a deeper understanding produce an app that is configurable in the right ways.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#79
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can do both, ChatGPT can code. So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests. The majority of the detractors of these models don't see the forest for the trees. It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing.

> It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing. This is not how technology works in the world. See the arguments of for example McLuhan. Technologies are appendages for the human body or intellect, and at the same time they numb the part of that they amplify. Also the point of the Architecture Astronauts idea is that they don't produce working systems. It's a specific pejorative, it doesn't refer generally to…

You clearly have a bone to pick with software architects, if anything it should reduce the amount of Space Travel for said architects.

McLuhan, a media analysis astronaut. Average is the message.

> Technologies are appendages for the human body or intellect

We previously had fleets of people calculating tables of numbers for hours per day. Simple calculators removed that need and increased the speed of results by orders of magnitude.

You seem to be arguing for handicap system, an intellectual conservatism. Is that correct?

What does ChatGPT remove from ones ability to write low level code or for a software architect to both architect a system AND produce a working model?

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#80

You learn a lot from ChatGPT though. If you want to know the ordinary answer to some essay question, cgpt will give you that. If you leave it at that and hand it in, maybe Chomsky is right. But it's also a essay writing productivity tool. You sketch out what you want mentioned and cgpt will fill in the gaps, like those apprentices that helped the renaissance masters. I keep coming back to the phrase "small intentions…

Is the high level structure of writing any more important than the low level structure? Maybe it will tend towards everyone sounding the same. Which then gets amplified as LLMs train on writing that is essentially mutations of itself. Me no like.

> Is the high level structure of writing any more important than the low level structure?

Well you can make a point about the fall of Rome with badly cited sources or spelling mistakes. But if your essay says Rome fell due to conquest by the Han dynasty it can't be saved by any number of correctly spelled, beautifully cited details.

ChatGPT will let you write an essay making any point while filling in little things.

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