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Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

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Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#51

Post by armchairhacker »

dyno12345 wrote: post #15

this is a somewhat clickbaitified headline > That students instinctively employ high technology to avoid learning is "a sign that the educational system is failing." If it "has no appeal to students, doesn’t interest them, doesn’t challenge them, doesn’t make them want to learn, they’ll find ways out," just as he himself did when he borrowed a friend’s notes to pass a dull college chemistry class without attending it…

> "For years there have been programs that have helped professors detect plagiarized essays,” Chomsky says. “Now it’s going to be more difficult, because it’s easier to plagiarize. But that’s about the only contribution to education that I can think of.” He does admit that ChatGPT-style systems “may have some value for something,” but “it’s not obvious what.”

The headline makes it seem like Chomsky hates ChatGPT when he really just seems indecisive.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#52

Post by CPLX »

lampshades wrote: post #8

If a dumb robot can write your college essay for you, maybe we shouldn't be wasting time writing essays.

What should we do if a dumb robot can keep us suspended in a nutrient rich gel and create a detailed set of mental experiences for us?

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#53

Post by sitkack »

thundergolfer wrote: post #36
lordnacho wrote: post #21

You learn a lot from ChatGPT though. If you want to know the ordinary answer to some essay question, cgpt will give you that. If you leave it at that and hand it in, maybe Chomsky is right. But it's also a essay writing productivity tool. You sketch out what you want mentioned and cgpt will fill in the gaps, like those apprentices that helped the renaissance masters. I keep coming back to the phrase "small intentions…

It sounds like you're advocating a system of education, thinking, and work that is exemplified by 'Software Architecture Astronauts', people who have not recently or ever contended with the details, the nuts and bolts, of actual software development and maintenance. To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd. This would have seen me absolutely fail my c…

We can do both, ChatGPT can code. So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests. The majority of the detractors of these models don't see the forest for the trees. It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#55

Post by BulgarianIdiot »

LeanderK wrote: post #29

I don't think the view that just because we can automate the creation of a simple essay makes writing essays for students obsolete. It's not what Chomsky said but I've heard the argument a lot in the context. We are not requiring it because everyone is writing essays all the time but because it's an important, basic skill. We can automate many math exercises, but it's still important to let students do it on their ow…

So you don’t need it in life because you don’t do it, but it’s an important basic skill. Explain this belief.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#57

Post by thundergolfer »

RobotToaster wrote: post #48

I prefer Zizek's take on it: " that AI will be the death of learning & so on; to this, I say NO! My student brings me their essay, which has been written by AI, & I plug it into my grading AI, & we are free! While the 'learning' happens, our superego satisfied, we are free now to learn whatever we want"

Chomsky kind of hints at this in the interview. He says he doesn't have a problem at MIT with not having engaged students, and though he doesn't say it I think it's obvious that his MIT students are not subjected to typical economics-driven educational pressures.

While other students are treating school as a means to a good salary and just want the highest marks for the least effort, Chomsky's graduate MIT students will be ignoring all that stuff and just having classic educational debate in essays and in conversation.

With Zizek it's the same. He doesn't have to bother with disengaged students, students who are desperate for college attendance to grant them a ticket into the comfortable upper middle classes and care not for the substance of learning. You take Zizek classes because you actually like philosophy and want to engage with it.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#58

Post by rvz »

JamesBarney wrote: post #5
sim7c00 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

generalizations dont apply to individuals, but its correct people , in general, like to jump on any opportunity not to learn but just to use something. that being said id expect most ppl lurking around NH not to feel that generalization applies to them... but they do use intellisense, ides, stack overflow, good etc. rather than taking the long road. up to a certain point that is ok, aslong as u are aware which corner…

It's not just ok it's great. an enormous amount of progress in civilization is due to down skilling. Technology allows someone with 4 hrs of training to accomplish what it took a master with 20 years in close to the same time.

> Technology allows someone with 4 hrs of training to accomplish what it took a master with 20 years in close to the same time.

I see, so that must mean that one can become a fully qualified lawyer, medical doctor, surgeon or a financial advisor in just 4 hours by using AI's like ChatGPT? Wow! /s

Sounds just like the infinite 'Learn X in 24 hours' scam courses. But this time with the AI snake oil label.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#59

Post by sitkack »

meroes wrote: post #45
lordnacho wrote: post #21

You learn a lot from ChatGPT though. If you want to know the ordinary answer to some essay question, cgpt will give you that. If you leave it at that and hand it in, maybe Chomsky is right. But it's also a essay writing productivity tool. You sketch out what you want mentioned and cgpt will fill in the gaps, like those apprentices that helped the renaissance masters. I keep coming back to the phrase "small intentions…

The model for mathematics is something like a “good book” of once-entered, unchanging posable questions and theorems. More may be added, but once added there is a sense of permanent definitiveness and relevance. For your example and beyond-mathematics calculator analogy, maybe the dates of historical events are equally definitive, but I don’t see much beyond that being so. Science goes through transformations. Either…

> Your expanded “calculator” paradigm seems unfounded.

Please explain. GPT makes a utility out something that previously was not. The GP didn't say it was exact.

Re: Noam Chomsky on ChatGPT: High-Tech Plagiarism, Way of Avoiding Learning

#60

Post by thundergolfer »

sitkack wrote: post #53
thundergolfer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're advocating a system of education, thinking, and work that is exemplified by 'Software Architecture Astronauts', people who have not recently or ever contended with the details, the nuts and bolts, of actual software development and maintenance. To be honest, the idea that you can produce valuable intellectual work by outsourcing the details is absurd. This would have seen me absolutely fail my c…

We can do both, ChatGPT can code. So the Astronauts should be able to produce working systems that pass functional tests. The majority of the detractors of these models don't see the forest for the trees. It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing.

> It only gives new capabilities, they remove nothing.

This is not how technology works in the world. See the arguments of for example McLuhan. Technologies are appendages for the human body or intellect, and at the same time they numb the part of that they amplify.

Also the point of the Architecture Astronauts idea is that they don't produce working systems. It's a specific pejorative, it doesn't refer generally to people that work at a high-level without harming the systems they engage with.

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