WHO: No level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health

> If we plot alcohol consumption in a population where x is alcohol consumed and y is health outcomes, and start from a value of ”y=1” at ”x=0” consumption, the curve will have a negative derivative everywhere.

Again.

NO!

Such plot does not exists, or you would show it to us.

A very recent Lancet study show that up to 2 standard units of alcohol a day, there's no measurable difference with non drinking people.

Two standard units is more than a pint of beer.

And above that, the difference is barely noticeable until some serious quantity of alcohol (4 units and above a day)

Do you have some more reliable data than Lancet by any chance?

> but statistically speaking it’s not a) necessary or b) healthy

statistically speaking you don't need hotdogs or coffee and they are not exactly healthy. Am I right?

statistically speaking you don't need opioids and yet

deaths involving opioids increased from an estimated 70,029 in 2020 to 80,816 in 2021

and it's even worse

an average of 44 people died each day from overdoses involving prescription opioids, totaling more than 16,000 deaths

so there's also that.

Maybe in US you have a moderation problem.

Maybe is a social problem, not an health issue.

> I’m not sure why you are equating drug use with physiological necessities but if you feel you need to be defensive of your or someone elses drinking habits that’s a red flag for alcoholism.

because the benefits are higher than the risks associated with them.

Biking is associated with a number of benefits, but biking is also very dangerous.

there is no amount of biking that can be considered risk free!

So, please, stop being Malachia from "The name of the rose"

> Usually alcoholics - typical of addiction- get pretty defensive of their habit

This is getting pathetic.

My family makes their own wine, from our own grapes, for family consumption, we've been doing it for centuries.

We love doing it together and then consume it together, as a family.

It makes our collective life better.

My grandparents, gran-grand parents and grand-grand-grand parents died on average after 90.

I would argue that usually the more pedantic anti-something are former addicts.

My dad was a heavy smoker, he is the most annoying anti-smoke person in the World.

You sound exactly like one of those "sober" people.

I'm a the only one sensing something here?

They have been lots of studies (many alcohol industry sponsored) that said that moderate alcohol was not only harmless, but GOOD for you. I think getting the message out, that no, its never good for you is important to do to counter that previous narrative.

The WHO is saying its bad for you and that's fine. And as you've said, once people have the information they can choose the risk profiles that suit them.

Sorry, I was not being anti-winery, just pro-statistics.

Yes, this is the study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

For individuals the stats are as you referred.

This is different thing than consumption in a population - if you increase the consumption in population only slightly it means some people will increase their consumption more and some less - and for those who increase their consumption more the mortality effects likely get worse.

However, as an additional data point, Canada updated just their recommendation of safe levels to two drinks per week or less https://ccsa.ca/canadas-guidance-alcohol-and-health.

If we observe the statistics of global alcohol deaths by country, there is a ridiculously high variance of death from alcohol https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/alcohol/b...

If you are from one of the low-drink-mortality countries then statistically I'm pretty sure alcohol in your reference population is far less mortality inducing than for example in my reference population (Finland) and I guess if the lancet type stats were collected from each country the number of "safe drinks per week" as a function of excess mortality would be quite different.

I guess your family is quite good at handling their drinking, but globally alcohol is quite lethal - according to WHO 3 million deaths per year (https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/alcohol). This is in same range as reported covid deaths in 2020 (3M) https://www.who.int/data/stories/the-true-death-toll-of-covi.... So alcohol roughly kills as many people per year as a global pandemic that just locked down half of the world for two years. But as we perceived from the above mortality-per-country chart, this is not evenly distributed by a long shot.

My intention was not to moralize, just to be clear headed about the stats. But the stats for an individual are quite different depending where you drink, I guess.

I've never met anyone so passionate about drinking who was not addicted to it. It's fun to realize a person can be passionate about it as a cultural and family tradition as well. Yes, I've met many an alcoholic, sadly. High mortality alcohol death country. In my reference population alcohol is quite lethal. That does not stop me from enjoying my drink now and then but I'm pretty coolheaded about the stats.

I realize you zeal came from a family tradition and this was a huge cultural misunderstanding - I wish well to your tradition and hope a plentiful next harvest :)

I always thought that this effect was due not causal but to many people using alcohol socially.

One of the biggest killers is loneliness. Have a look at the Harvard life study.

Only the weak ones.