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Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

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Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#261
post #216
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A case I had right now. Just try to google this: When migrating from Swagger 2 ApiOperation annotation to OpenAPI 3.0 Operation by what attribute is nickname replaced? And then ask ChatGPT ... Google is done

OK, so GPT is good at parsing technical documentation. What about the other 95% of search volume that isn't tech-related?

TikTok believe it or not.

I had a 19yr old cousin tell me that she almost uses TikTok exclusively for tutorials and when I pushed back and said why/how the other teens in the family heavily agreed. I’ve since asked ~5 gen z (I don’t interact with many!) and they told me the same.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#262
post #140

For people in this thread convinced that Google is scrambling to come up with a ChatGPT competitor - that’s only true on the product side. Internally, LamDA has been available with a chatGPT style interface for years (maybe more like 18 months).

To compete, Google has to disrupt its own product, which happens to be one of the most lucrative flywheels in history. It has everything to lose while MS has everything to gain by augmenting Bing and indeed its other products.

That’s what makes it such a challenge for Google, despite being one of the few companies who can actually pull it off at a technical level.

Both companies will also face legal issues, reputation risk (see MS’s Tay bot), and challenges scaling this tech to billions of non-paying users. MS has been more willing to march forward, Google had to be dragged into it by the competition.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#263
post #140

For people in this thread convinced that Google is scrambling to come up with a ChatGPT competitor - that’s only true on the product side. Internally, LamDA has been available with a chatGPT style interface for years (maybe more like 18 months).

Did anyone outside of Google really have a chance to play with it?

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#264

You know, whatever the merits (and it sounds as if there were very few) of Google's presentation (or Pinchai's recent non-statement) might be, I would have expected the commentariat here at HN to display way more skepticism about language models as a replacement for search. If there's a crowd anywhere in the world large enough to leave 200+ comments on a post like this, you'd think thatg the one at HN would understan…

> If there's a crowd anywhere in the world large enough to leave 200+ comments on a post like this, you'd think thatg the one at HN would understand these models' currently unsolved problem with lying and fabulation.

if i'm being frank, that doesn't match my experience with HN at all. chatgpt is the hot new thing, of course people here are preoccupied imagining a future powered with it.

there are a bunch of different types of people here, with different perspectives that might be at odds with one another, but they don't necessarily comment on the same articles.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#265
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a random experiment I asked both platforms "What is the current average mortgage rate?" https://www.perplexity.ai/?s=u&uuid=6f7fe592-c11f-4df9-a2bf-... https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+the+current+average+... Google's results were far more informative and usable. I then tried something I thought would be more up Perplexity's alley: "Who was the first US president with a last name starting with R?" https://w…

> The first US president with a last name starting with "R" was John Quincy Adams, whose middle name started with "R". If you're looking for a president whose last name starts with "R", then the first would be James A. Garfield. ChatGPT is amazing, until it isn't.

There's a reason Steve Jobs demoed the iPhone with hardcoded reception bars showing a full-strength AT&T signal.

The real iPhone 1 was 2G only, constantly dropped calls and had no copy/paste.

That a large chunk of HN audience is sitting agape watching similarly manicured demos is surprising to say the least.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#266
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is going to bleed credibility for every month that they don't have a lamda/llm enabled search integrated into the home page. I don't know that end-users really care about having a GPT-written paragraph accompanying their search results. Is there some other kind of output AI search currently provides that I'm missing?

I don't know that end-users really care about having a GPT-written paragraph accompanying their search results. For 90% of my searches I don't want any search results. I want a definitive, authoritative answer to a question. In the olden days of the web I had to figure out what to search to give me a website that would give me that answer as the first result, and in the mid-90s that was really hard because search was…

> I want a definitive, authoritative answer to a question.

As others have pointed out, AI is not yet capable of this. I do agree though, I want this too. But I don't trust OpenAI or Google or anyone else to do it correctly yet.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#267

You know, whatever the merits (and it sounds as if there were very few) of Google's presentation (or Pinchai's recent non-statement) might be, I would have expected the commentariat here at HN to display way more skepticism about language models as a replacement for search. If there's a crowd anywhere in the world large enough to leave 200+ comments on a post like this, you'd think thatg the one at HN would understan…

Any numerical system operates only on numerical, not logical/grammatical/whatever constraints. Wrongness is built into any system based solely on neural components by the simple fact that rightness is unverifiable from within these systems' own "logical" (read: associational) apparati.

I share your confusion regarding the grave dearth of incredulity in the reception of these technologies.

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#268
post #257
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any indication real attribution is coming? I wouldn't hold my breath. Showing attributions allows people to reverse engineer how the prompt was made, and identifies weaknesses in the model. Bad for business!

I feel like all of the interesting stuff when it comes to search+LLM is in real hybridization that's still a few steps out from what's happening right now in terms of productization. For example: (a) Addressing the recency problem by making a model generate instructions to a browser as output token stream, so it can, well, Google for you and incorporate latest info into output by adding it to the "internal prompt". (…

> This also seems intuitively true: If you ask your friend a difficult question, you often don't expect them to be able to answer it on the spot. You probably expect them to have relevant experience and a rough understanding of the topics and the tools to look up or figure out the rest. Similarly, it feels intuitively wrong to expect a LLM to come ready-made with all knowledge baked in.

Not sure. In theory, this being computers and all, I sort of do expect my search engine to effectively come "ready-made with all knowledge baked in". I do not expect Google to start a new web crawl because I gave it a novel query, and I don't expect a language model (certainly not one being used for search purposes) to say "hang on, I need to go read some more before I answer that".

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#269
post #245

You know, whatever the merits (and it sounds as if there were very few) of Google's presentation (or Pinchai's recent non-statement) might be, I would have expected the commentariat here at HN to display way more skepticism about language models as a replacement for search. If there's a crowd anywhere in the world large enough to leave 200+ comments on a post like this, you'd think thatg the one at HN would understan…

I'd like to have more discussion about the attribution problem, specifically. We now have a couple of the players saying they're working on, or having demos. But from what I can see, all of these don't _actually_ attribute the source. They're just able to find _a_ source that fits to the output, working backward from it. Often the attributed source fits, but is actually disagreeing with the original output in specifi…

I was musing on my website about ChatGPT [1] and one of the things I noticed about it is that if you analogize it to your own brain, which has a language model in it too, we are collectively asking ChatGPT to do something we would never ask of our own language model. ChatGPT does not have the "higher level" reasoning that we're asking for, to do logic, attribution, and the other things we want.

This is not necessarily a "criticism". It is obvious that ChatGPT produces an incredibly rich and meaning-filled representation of the text, as the extension of the text it can be used for demonstrates. But we should not be trying to "tweak" the language model here and there, trying to make a language model do something it isn't really suited for. We should be working on how to hook up that higher-level functionality. It is not obvious how to do that, true. But it at least stands a chance of producing the AI in reality that people think we have now, but don't.

For that reason, I don't think attribution is coming without a significant addition to the architecture. Language models shouldn't be doing attribution; the mess you'd create of them to accomplish that would ruin them as language models. Can you imagine how insane you'd go if your internal language model tried to stuff down every instance of when you have seen and/or used the word "brain" every time you tried to use the word "brain"? That's not what language models are for. That's what the thing using the language model does. I expect AIs to parallel this. I see no reason at all, and abundant reasons to the contrary, to expect AIs to just be undifferentiated blobs of numbers. I expect them to have structures just as our brains do, and for the exact same reasons. If undifferentiated blobs of identical neurons was the way to go, our brains would work that way too; it's far simpler than what we actually have.

[1]: https://www.jerf.org/iri/post/2023/understanding_gpt_better/

Re: Google's live from Paris event private/deleted immediately

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perplexity https://www.perplexity.ai/ does it well in my opinion. It builds a paragraph answering your query but it has a lot of footnotes that link directly to websites. Ex: "geopolitical reason for palm oil being banned and why it's bad for health" The EU has banned palm oil in biofuels due to its negative impacts on health[1] and its geopolitical implications, such as favoring alternative crops grown in Europe[2].…

A link is useless if you can't verify it. Just linking to the "nih.gov" homepage is meaningless, I have no ability to click through and verify that "ah yes, this page does demonstrate the claim being made." The system could just link to arbitrary homepages of respected institutions and claim that they back up whatever is being said.

Apologies, I had a hard time copy/pasting the footnotes as on the website they are css styled boxes with a thumbnail. This is only the label, the link itself brings the the relevant pages.
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