Live data from Hacker News

Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

research.mozilla.org

181–190 of 349 posts

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#181
post #8
post #3

Dear Mozilla, you're practically drowning in money, so do something with it. Like, have Firefox on Android support creating home screen borderless widgets with any webpage. Oh, but Google isn't going to like it. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, I get it.

Would you mind supplying a source supporting that they’re drowning in money? Developing a browser on the functionality of chrome (especially in terms of security) is crazy imo, especially with a different engine. Sincere question btw, as far as I know they’re “non-profit” but they get a good bit of hate. I love the browser due to the customization/flags it offers while being up to date in terms of security. I haven’t…

They get roughly $0.5B in easy money each year from search partnerships. I call it easy money because all that is asked is to keep Google the default search engine. You could argue that they do need to deliver something for this money, in particular maintaining a decent market share so that the search deal makes sense.

Not really. Market share has been in a 12 year(!) non-stop decline: https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share#monthly-2009...

And yet the value of the search partnerships seems relatively stable. Probably because Google wants to avoid regulatory pressure. Google could destroy Mozilla today, but won't. $0.5B is pocket change for Google in comparison to the $20B they wire to Apple for being the default search engine.

Still, getting $0.5B whilst failing and being shielded from market forces that other companies face is a luxury position. Mozilla would be long out of business if it was an actual business. There's also very few NGO-type of organizations with this type of generous funding.

Can this $0.5B be used to recover market share for Firefox? No. It's not an engineering problem. Safari wins because it has no competition on iOS. Chrome wins because it's shipped as a default on Android and Google uses platforms with billions of users to push it (Youtube, Gmail, etc). Mozilla does not have this "browser push" capability. And even if they would have that, they're unlikely to out-engineer the giants. Having your own browser engine is not a competitive advantage, as Microsoft learned.

Hence, Firefox is in a "keeping the lights on" mode whilst Mozilla tries to invest in other things. Such as upping the pay of failing executives, writing activist blogs, puzzling acquisitions that don't make any money (Pocket?), and they're even cocky enough to give away money in the form of grants.

They're used to easy and free money. To be able to constantly fail without much consequence. To be able to work on things with no impact.

I do want to end on a more constructive note. The way I see it, the world lacks a model for funding our digital common goods. W3C, ICANN, Mozilla (Firefox, MDN, the like) but also regulatory bodies (i.e. privacy) can be considered shared infrastructure. In the bigger picture they cost pennies to fund so it's quite pathetic that as a world we can't even organize that.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

My parents are not technical, I don't want to have to worry about their phones or computers, so they use iphones and ipads, and I have a pi-hole connected to their router that clears away most ads. They like going to the app store and knowing there is at least some level of curation on the apps. If they suddenly have to start dealing with competing app stores and sideloading and menus and all that stuff their experie…

Do you think suddenly iphones will come out of the box with competing app stores?

What made this strange thought pop into your head?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#183
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

> The restrictions are a feature and not a bug. The point of open OS is not to force its users to use unvetted apps. It is to give them an option to do so. The argument that someone might want to use a restricted OS because they want to only use vetted apps is flawed. The reason is that the users can use an open OS in the exactly same way, if they choose to do so.

ain't nobody talking about unverified apps. why can't Chrome (fr fr) be in the app store?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#184

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

The web is not an exception when put next to macOS (it's core remains mostly unchanged since Next) and Windows (literally can still run Win16 apps). The perfect API is the enemy of adoption and that's not going to change.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

> Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. I just want to ask you something. I'm a software developer, able to build out of parts and configure a headless Linux box, unlock the bootloader on, flash and root an Android phone and use both successfully, and "Please OS vendor I want something simple, ... , please lock down my machine" is literally THE reason why I got an expensive iPhone as my last phone instead of a cheap…

> Would you say that I'm stupid?

Yes.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#186

What does Moz hope to accomplish? That Firefox will be used on iOS by any quantifiable amount of users when we all know only Chrome has to gain from opening iOS to their tracking and Google's ads? Such that Google completely dominates the web and any way of monetizing it, to be soon extended into "best rendered using Chrome" more than it is already? Why is Moz doing this, in the name of bland fake-juvenile "the web w…

Their shrinking userbase won't recover if they aren't properly available everywhere. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd want them to focus on. More so than silly outreach/activism and inflating board salaries.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#187

Browsers are doing well. I'm more worried about the fact the browser is turning into the entire operating system these days. Even the apps use the browser engine for a lot of functionality these days. It's like a parasite, the OS is being eaten inside out. I'd be fine with this, it's a typical disruption process. Except the browser stack is full of legacy features, is bloated, and I'd hate for this to be the de-facto…

> Except the browser stack is full of legacy features Examples?

I don't agree with GP's sentiment but one need only look at Number.parseInt vs parseInt and the associates coercion differences, and even typeof null which was on the front page today. Lots of cumbersome APIs like XHR and others designed before Promises existed, and even smooshgate, where we couldn't introduce flatten() because Prototype (iirc) implemented it already and failed to properly handle the possibility that the browser could already have it (plus it worked differently where the default depth of the new standard API is 2).

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#188
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a user of browsers and though I like it the most the Firefox drives me crazy with the constant updating notices. I will never let any program auto update itself if I have a choice - sorry, I like to know if something is happening with the things I use - but the frequent bugging of the Firefox to update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update, update is driving me mad! Why…

The primary "new features" of a new browser release are (A) security fixes and (B) support for new web standards, which websites will adopt. If you are not a security expert or a web developer, how are you supposed to judge whether these new features are something you want to upgrade for? You probably won't even know that you're missing these new features-- if you wait long enough to upgrade, you might fall victim to…

I wrote to do security only updates, look back.

But new standards in every 2 weeks? You are kidding, right?! : ))

And security updates as well every other weeks?! (or sometimes two in one day or in three days in between: just checked the update history) Are the software products in THAT poor quality, really?! Then those should not be released yet! Those are THE vulnaribility then. It is a scam then if this is deliberate - releasing poor products before securing just to occupy themseves for long long time to come finishing it, make it properly.... Maybe shouldn't include those standards in a heist, making thing even more complex so it is a hopeless battle agains the security leaks that make those products look like a sieve. Shouldn't rush things if ends up this badly that frequent and important and urgent patches are required.

Also no! Not only security fixes and new standards come, you are mistaken quite a bit. There are no separate updates for features and security. I checked. New features come bundled on how to do things differently, adding things as well. Bookmarks or whatnot - welded together with important stuff -, I do not care as I mentioned the product in features is good already and never missed those yet I am bugged against my will to get those too (good enough only means on the surface of course, not in security, in security it seems to be hopelessly and constantly below the minimum since urgent, immediate, install right away or you doom kind of messages come from here and there). Sometimes they even repackage, redesign, put elsewhere existing and frequently used things breaking the user flow again, making its usage more difficult for a time being while you get used to it (if you can, not always) just to ruin it yet again later. It is good it is free for the end user, for that sloppy quality breaking the usage and requiring frequent fixes no amount of money should be given. You woldn't if it was a car or a tool for the physical world.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#189

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

Android makes it very difficult to modify the system WebView engine. This means no alternatives to one of the more important parts of the system. If you want adblock in a web view, tough luck for most.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#190

Just reading the beginning, it looks like they're mainly complaining about proprietary OS vendors restricting users' choice in browsers through various shenanigans. Linux users (for desktop systems) don't have this problem, and for mobile, Android users can easily install Firefox (or better yet, Firefox Nightly) through the Google Play store and set it to be the default browser. Basically, if you want to have choice…

> Microsoft OS isn't that bad these days Really? Edge is the default option, they push you to make Edge the default if you are using Chrome or Firefox and every now and then they ask you to accept Microsoft's default Windows settings. The show their MSN news by default, Bing is default, they show ads in the OS, they constantly ask you to log in to your Microsoft account, everything leads to MS 365 office products or…

If you search firefox on edge/bing the first result is a gigantic banner telling you that edge is cool and modern and there's no need for that.
Post reply on HN