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Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

mennohenselmans.com

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Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#191

Post by geph2021 »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #167
epistemer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lifted for 30 years. The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. The reason is because of all the things I have done in my life, lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is. It is as complex as shoveling dirt. The only way to differentiate if trying to make money is to bullshit. Pick th…

Yup. Everything else is either bull shit or an attempt to optimize. Unless you are a body builder or a pro athlete you really should focus on consistency more than optimization. Getting 1% better results for the average person is going to be nullified by the beers they drink on the weekend/the multiple days they skip because they dont feel like working out/any number of other normal life actives that are not optimal.…

   Unless you are a body builder or a pro athlete you really should focus on consistency more than optimization
This is the best general advice I've read on here. Follow a fitness routine, stick with it. Whatever makes that easier for you, that's your secrete sauce.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#192

Post by Semaphor »

voytec wrote: post #170
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to stop eating carbs, but not eating carbs has the possibility[1] to save off some gluconeogenesis by subbing fat for muscle while in ketosis, retaining more gains from the bulk. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

Keto is terrible for gains. I call it a "no gainz diet". Source: I'm on long-term keto for reasons unrelated to weight.

Not an endorsement, but there is a sub: /r/ketogains I think they do controlled carb eating while on keto.

I'm only doing normal keto so I only have cursory knowledge about this sub and know nothing about the science.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#193

Post by nym375 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #51

As a comment addressing several comment threads here, and what I believe is a fallacy in the article. The main issue I believe at play is that non-competitive types (eg non bodybuilders) frequently are not very good at assessing how hard they're pushing themselves. Because of that working with 1lb (or very low % of 1RM) is often ineffective because they have a hard time telling if the 99th, 100th, or 120th rep is tru…

Agreed. This article doesn't try to navigate the nuance around why someone still may actually want to follow a program that sounds like disproven broscience. Whether it's about better understanding your limits, familiarizing yourself with the feel of much heavier weight, or trying to make the most of a very short workout, it often makes a lot of sense to include things that aren't the biological optimal choice.

Jeff Nippard does a much better job a presenting things as a trade-off that you should consider when choosing or designing your program.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#194

Post by dav_Oz »

goalieca wrote: post #26

21 comments and not one person mentioned steroids. These are extremely common and are an open secret. All of these bodybuilders who share their routines and meal plans rarely mention what cycles they are on and the long term health consequences of such after their career has finished.

Imhv the bodybuilding/powerlifting community is pretty open about it once you immerse yourself there.

But, yeah, the non-initiated get a pretty skewed picture about how muscular one can get, naturally. That's a whole another discussion about body perception/dismorphia and societal idealizations.

It is also fairly easy to give an accurate estimation (esp. if fat percentage In some natural bodybuilding competitions anyone with FFMI >25 is ruled out automatically because of the high probability of steroid use at that point. Of course a non-trivial amount of natural genetic freaks certainly exist beyond this number and a case can be made that's the whole point of competitive sports: "freaks" competing against each other.

But then again once you are in the highly competitive game it is (nearly) impossible to resist PEDs.

I guess for that reason many different classes/federations exist to choose from.

[0]https://mennohenselmans.com/ffmi-calculator/

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#195

Post by dangom »

khazhoux wrote: post #182
epistemer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lifted for 30 years. The standard bullshit line in the fitness industry has always been "everyone else is wrong". Practically what every single trainer ever in the world has said. The reason is because of all the things I have done in my life, lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is. It is as complex as shoveling dirt. The only way to differentiate if trying to make money is to bullshit. Pick th…

> lifting is the most trivially simple activity there is Lucky you. For me, I always hit plateaus after a couple of months, and then in the past have given up several times after no progress over many months. This time, starting 13 months ago, I'm determined to stick with it, but still it's sloooooow, despite hours at the gym every other day (no exceptions!) putting in the work. So I'm definitely interested in seeing…

You may not see any progress, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. You are perfecting the moves you are making, and strengthening your bones, ligaments and tendons, which just don't develop nearly as fast as muscles.

Staying at a plateau for a while is sometimes great to avoid injury.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#196

Post by scruple »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #188
iamacyborg wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual competitive bodybuilding is far more complicated. Sure, but that's a general truism. People focus too much on the 1% micro-optimisations instead of nailing the 99% that produces the largest rewards. I like how Steve Magness puts it[^1] > Good, solid consistent work stacked month after month, year after year is what leads to better performance. [^1]: https://twitter.com/stevemagness/status/1493946400442392589…

This 100%, but I think it is also just the proliferation of information today. 99% of the gain is about a very simple set of exercises. I maintain that most people would get a superb musculature with just cycling/running, squats, deadlifts and bench presses (ignoring pre-existing injuries). 4 exercises where the most complex machinery is a bike, and even that can be replaced with running. Doing it consistently is the…

> most people would get a superb musculature with just cycling/running, squats, deadlifts and bench presses (ignoring pre-existing injuries).

FWIW, you just described the essence of the Tactical Barbell system here. I've been using it to great effect over the last ~4 years. I will probably never touch a different strength and conditioning program as long as I live.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#197

Post by borroka »

y-c-o-m-b wrote: post #174
borroka wrote: post #41

I have been weight training for almost 30 years. I've tried just about every program, split and variation under the sun, and I've seen and practiced for a time fads that have come and gone. In the last six months, I have changed things up. I now train with low volume per muscle group (on average, 4-6 sets per muscle group, reps per set between 6 and 12, pushing very hard, close to exercise, not muscle, failure, which…

> when I cannot complete 1 or 2 additional reps with proper form Thanks for mentioning the last part. That "proper form" bit is waaaaaaaaaay overlooked and even the definition of "proper form" can be ambiguous. A lot of people - myself included on SO many embarrassing occasions - tend to cheat out of proper form. This resulted in injuries that have left me permanently unable to do some exercises. Like many others do,…

"I'd read threads like this and see somebody talk about how moving to lower rep ranges suddenly packed on way more muscle, so I'd change up my workout to do the same" -

Certain things need to be experienced with proper guidance and in the right environment. Unfortunately, many people on the nerdy side, myself included, think that you can transition seamlessly from reading or listening to applications, but this is not true; there is a large chunk of information that needs to be experienced or guided 1:1. "Train with the intensity expected of professionals" is different from "train with the intensity expected of professionals in the presence of professionals."

"You talk about variance here and that's absolutely a topic that is not discussed enough" -

Reflecting on variance, individual variability, and the distribution of events and outcomes is lacking in the "reasoning toolboxes" of the vast majority of people. It is remarkable how taking into account variance of responses or outcomes, individuality, and statistical/frequency distribution can improve thinking and reasoning about any kind of problem.

I would say that the virulence of most conversations on sensitive topics could be softened if people thought not in terms of averages or anecdotes, but in terms of statistical distributions.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#198

Post by leidenfrost »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #189
leidenfrost wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want my body to eat up my muscle mass in the process.

You really don't have to worry about accidentally building too much muscle. It takes a ridiculous effort. I'm talking about multiple hours of training a day, 6 days a week. If you go and spend an hour in the gym lifting weights 3x a week and do some cardio before each session, you'll get a nicely shaped body with well defined muscles but you definitely aren't going to be even close to looking like Ronnie Coleman, tru…

With "eat up" I was talking about losing muscle by not doing any exercise while I'm on a caloric deficit :)

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#199

Post by maerF0x0 »

nym375 wrote: post #193
maerF0x0 wrote: post #51

As a comment addressing several comment threads here, and what I believe is a fallacy in the article. The main issue I believe at play is that non-competitive types (eg non bodybuilders) frequently are not very good at assessing how hard they're pushing themselves. Because of that working with 1lb (or very low % of 1RM) is often ineffective because they have a hard time telling if the 99th, 100th, or 120th rep is tru…

Agreed. This article doesn't try to navigate the nuance around why someone still may actually want to follow a program that sounds like disproven broscience. Whether it's about better understanding your limits, familiarizing yourself with the feel of much heavier weight, or trying to make the most of a very short workout, it often makes a lot of sense to include things that aren't the biological optimal choice. Jeff…

WRT making the most of a very short workout time. Jeff recommends (presumably backed by science as that's his MO) for someone to instead do super sets/cycles with non correlated muscle groups.

Eg: Bench, Leg extension, Row, rest 60 seconds -- in a cycle so that by the time you get back to bench you've given the chest/triceps 3-5mins rest.

Re: Why the conventional wisdom on how to grow muscles is wrong

#200

Post by borroka »

moneywoes wrote: post #128
borroka wrote: post #41

I have been weight training for almost 30 years. I've tried just about every program, split and variation under the sun, and I've seen and practiced for a time fads that have come and gone. In the last six months, I have changed things up. I now train with low volume per muscle group (on average, 4-6 sets per muscle group, reps per set between 6 and 12, pushing very hard, close to exercise, not muscle, failure, which…

May I ask your split?

Apparently for recovery, sleep quality, and soreness. I also take Zinc and Potassium and Boron.
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