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Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#871

Post by red-iron-pine »

happymellon wrote: post #857
lolinder wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're the most honest pro-office person here. Everyone else is making justifications that dance around this idea that they need the office for the human connection. What you describe is very real and I understand that it hurts. I think what's happening is that we're in the shaking out phase where companies are deciding whether they'll be remote/hybrid/office. Each company will make that decision based on the…

One of the other issues is that I don't hate the office in principle. However open plan, sales folks yelling on a phone, demands that I don't wear headphones to drown it out, is all so draining. I remember the lead up to Christmas 2019, some fucking idiots decided that what we really needed in the open plan office, where I'm already positioned near the café, was removal of mini-meeting rooms, and 2 hours of carollers…

To paraphrase a coworker, they demand productivity... but then manage to make the office the most unpleasant, unproductive environment available.

An uncomfortable desk and ancient HP monitors, none of which I can upgrade or change; loud coworkers; tons of unrelated teams, for whom sharing space is unnecessary; and calls with people, most of whom aren't even in the same city (or timezone). Meanwhile I can do all of that at home, more effectively, with far more flexibility.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#872

Post by JohnFen »

SpeedilyDamage wrote: post #391
Johnny555 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know? The very nature of that communication is that it’s private. How would I know that these conversations happen over Slack? Because I've participated in them, either in DM's or small private channels. And this was commonplace well before the pandemic and WFH started. Maybe nobody talks to you in person, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It's hard to have a private in-person conversation outsid…

It’s really not hard to have private convos in an open office setup, I did it for years and years. Nobody cares about you or what you’re saying. I would find it highly suspicious if someone tried to have a backroom convo with me on a digital platform.

I find it hard to have any conversations at all in an open office setup, just like it's hard to get work done in that environment. Open office setups amplify all of the downsides of working in an office.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#873

Post by JohnFen »

listenallyall wrote: post #168
snozolli wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every element you mention as being part of an in-office experience has been completely absent from my career. Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Never received any mentorship or even any guidance, I was always simply given a task and expected to complete it. Company culture doesn't even feel like a real thing outside of HR blurbs. Spontaneous collaboration was outweighed by interruptions and meddl…

> Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Sorry buddy but that's on you. You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others. Then at some point down the road when they need to hire someone, they remember, hey 'snozolli' was a great coworker, let me see if they're available.

> You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others.

Why do you assume he doesn't do that?

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#874

Post by db48x »

wildrhythms wrote: post #70
ttul wrote: post #60

Employer here. We had a fancy brick and timber office. It was beautiful and centrally located. I let the lease expire in 2021 after everyone went remote for the pandemic. There has been no sign of any decay in productivity. It is true that hanging out in person develops a sense of human connection that feels good. But is that needed for effective work? I’m not so sure. Brainstorming and creative collaboration activit…

>Brainstorming and creative collaboration activities seem more effective when done in person Let me tell you, I hate these. And I will take vacation days to avoid going to them. And I also think they're not very productive no matter how many 'How To Run A Sprint' classes the organizers take.

I feel the same way. And wasn't there research showing that group brainstorming was the least likely to produce the best ideas? I should go look that up.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#875

Post by jsjsof »

listenallyall wrote: post #168
snozolli wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every element you mention as being part of an in-office experience has been completely absent from my career. Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Never received any mentorship or even any guidance, I was always simply given a task and expected to complete it. Company culture doesn't even feel like a real thing outside of HR blurbs. Spontaneous collaboration was outweighed by interruptions and meddl…

> Never made a connection that proved valuable later on. Sorry buddy but that's on you. You make valuable connections by being generous and helpful to others. Then at some point down the road when they need to hire someone, they remember, hey 'snozolli' was a great coworker, let me see if they're available.

Being generous and helpful only makes people take advantage. You become the guy who knows things and does the work and you never get promoted.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#876

Post by red-iron-pine »

RestlessMind wrote: post #766
csomar wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making the dangerous assumption that these people know what they are doing. Time and again, winners and losers emerge of this and many of the top level executives turns out to be dead wrong.

And you are making assumption that these people are all stupid. What is your arguement?

stupid =/= incompetent

I've known math wizards, PhD mega-thinkers who would be terrible at leading organizations and pushing projects.

Lots of mgmt is incompetent, and there is a bell curve there just as bell-y and curve-y as other employee ranks. Like, basically by definition 50% are below average like anywhere else.

The missing piece is that plenty of these < 50th percentile can get jobs, often high level ones in respected companies. It's often who you know, how you make people feel, and what sort of connections and optics you bring to the table.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#877

Post by potta_coffee »

dsugarman wrote: post #546
lolinder wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're the most honest pro-office person here. Everyone else is making justifications that dance around this idea that they need the office for the human connection. What you describe is very real and I understand that it hurts. I think what's happening is that we're in the shaking out phase where companies are deciding whether they'll be remote/hybrid/office. Each company will make that decision based on the…

Put yourself in the executives shoes for a second, they're not stupid people, they know how large the risk of blowback is and how many employees they might disenfranchise or lose. They're that confident that remote work is a bigger threat to their long-term performance and they don't want to get lapped by the companies with an in-office culture

I think you're wrong, people are generally short-sighted, stupid and selfish, including executives.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#878

Post by potta_coffee »

pxue wrote: post #381
nostromo wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in person isn't the issue here -- not having friends is the issue. People do make friends at work, and that's a good thing. But it should never be your primary place of making friends. (Friends and family won't lay you off like a job might. Having a network outside of work is critical if that ever happens.) Asking your coworkers to come into the office just so you can get some needed face time with other peop…

C'mon that's just bullshit. Once working, you spend 8h a day with a group of people. It's by far the easiest way to make friends since the needed repetition of making contact (a minimum requirement for friendship) is already solved by going to work together. Making friends as an adult is hard. Work is the easiest shortcut in establishing meaningful relationships with strangers. Edit: addressing some of the comments b…

Work is the worst place to make friends. You don't get to choose the people you work with. If you change jobs or get sacked, your social circle is vaporized. Work is a place to make money. I work remotely, don't miss the socialization because many of my co-workers are sucky people. I have friends I've made through hobbies, veterans groups etc.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#879

Post by pythonbase »

rihegher wrote: post #302
pythonbase wrote: post #80

Short answer: Control. Traditional employers want their employees back in the office since they are unable to control them otherwise. Employers and managers who have failed to grasp the concepts of remote working, lack in async communication, and have trust issues with their staff, want to keep a physical headcount of the sheep

I have been working remotely almost exclusively for the last 13 years. One thing I've realized (and experimented) is that it is super easy to make a team of full remote developers to jump ship together since they don't have to move to a new place if they stay in remote positions. In addition they can continue working within the same team if all the team agree to change company together. And I think this can be quite…

That can also happen with physical teams. I am familiar with several instances where one team member got a job somewhere and was able to pull a number of resources from current to new employer.

Re: Ask HN: Employers, why do you want us back in the office?

#880

Post by potta_coffee »

mustini wrote: post #572
givemeethekeys wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making friends as an adult is hard. Pick a social hobby. Pick up sports, hiking / running / reading / trivia / sports groups. Take a class. Take up a cause - volunteer your time at the local farm, shelter, political office.. Kids don't go to school with the goal of making friends. The friends are a byproduct.

This is very easy advice to give and oft repeated, but I’m deeply skeptical that this is something that works for most people (unless we substitute friends with acquaintances).

I've made a bunch of friends through Brazilian Jiu Jitsu classes. I'm a somewhat awkward programmer dude who has a hard time making friends.
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