Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#461

Post by grumpy_coder » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #290

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

The key thing is there needs to be a falsifiable condition whereby we agree these programs have achieved their primary goal, and that the risk of scope creep, corruption, or other externalities like the ones the OP mentions has exceeded the potential further benefits, so they should be wound down. I'm not going to state my opinion here, but if such a condition is not identified in any way, we should assume these grou…

Very much agree with this comment, creating and gaming KPIs is at the heart of most DEI departments now.

We do need long term improvements at the start of the funnel, but no-one is adding a 7 year KPI for improving stats of 14 year old girls quitting AP math.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#462

Post by dcow » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

The5thElephant wrote: post #412

dbrueck wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm... this sounds an awful lot like, "because you're responding to a comment made by a black person, the only acceptable response is one of total agreement". I think you might want to reflect for a minute on the importance of nuance in a discussion, and the net effect of trying to police comments on others' behalf. I completely believe the commenter's experience, but I also witnessed the opposite a lot (and was deep…

But it is unclear what you are disagreeing with. They never said that there was nothing positive in those communities. So what is the point of your comment? To make sure no one leaves this thread thinking that those communities were a net negative or something? I understand the desire to defend something you were a part of and got something positive out of, but the original commenter isn't criticizing people for enjo…

It’s unclear because you’ve concocted it. You’re asserting that there’s disagreement when there never was. I don’t strictly blame you for perpetuating ill rhetoric, but at least be aware that you’re responding to a stance that the comment in question never took in a fever to defend a black OP that never asked for any help and frankly IMO doesn't need it based on the high quality of their comment.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#463

Post by Swizec » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

consumer451 wrote: post #427

Swizec wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll never forget a coworker explaining to me that in America she’s PoC, but back home she’s white. That really blew my mind.

> I’ll never forget a coworker explaining to me that in America she’s PoC, but back home she’s white. That really blew my mind. I think that's a huge and extremely valuable lesson. That's because there is no such thing as "white" ethnicity. It is a word used to categorize us vs other. This is not my theory, afaik it's a fact. A fact which seems to upset a lot people. Based on previous conversations, it appears to be…

On that topic, there’s a fascinating essay by Benjamin Franklin explaining how Germans aren’t sufficiently white* and shouldn’t be allowed in America in such vast numbers.

https://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?psid=85&...

> What is perhaps most striking about Franklin's essay today is his sophisticated use of "social science" data to convince the British ministry to alter its colonial policies. Particularly jarring, however, is Franklin's plea that America be maintained as an entirely Anglo-Saxon society.

*This was probably a few centuries before one would use the word “white” in this context. Too many pale folk who don’t qualify. It was more about calling out ethnicities directly as people still do in Europe.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#464

Post by hgsgm » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #206

jaltekruse wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the top comment on this thread seriously a reverse racism rant? You are right about something, affirmative action is racist, but I feel it is absolutely necessary to try to balance out current inequities. I strongly believe people making arguments like yours, people fighting against affirmative action need to propose an alternative rather than just complain about it. There are lots of people alive today that could…

> people fighting against affirmative action need to propose an alternative rather than just complain about it Not only is an alternative proposed, it's already implemented for quite a while: discrimination is illegal. Equal outcome vs equal opportunity. You can argue for any side you want, just don't pretend you don't see or don't understand the other position.

Equal opportunity as in paying reparations for slavery, Jim Crow laws, and the rest?

Or no because the statute of limitations expires while white government was busy refusing to entertain the idea?

Support for reparations is table stakes for anyone talking about "equal opportunity".

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#465

Post by barneygale » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

slackfan wrote: post #263

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

[flagged]

> unless you made your incidental identity the central topic of discussion in unrelated conversation

http://bash.org/?top try ctrl-fing for "fag", "homo", "jew", etc. These insults were routinely used on the early internet _without_ anyone volunteering their gender/ethnicity/sexual preferences/whatever.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#466

Post by ParetoOptimal » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:49 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #411

mostly_lurks wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…

> but I think you'll find that the net effect of your comment is still one of dismissing a black person's lived experience Pointing out that those venues were full of anti-everything hate is not dismissing a black person's experience, it's validating it, while pointing out that he's not alone.

> Pointing out that those venues were full of anti-everything hate is not dismissing a black person's experience, it's validating it, while pointing out that he's not alone.

But it implicitly implies the negative experiences were similar in scale unless otherwise noted.

It downplays the very large weight that racism adds to the negativity of that experience even if the intent is a noble one of making that person not feel alone.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#467

Post by onion2k » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #331

onion2k wrote: post #285

For example, I know I'm talented - I've got the projects, certs, and experience to back it up. I think a lot of people who are relatively new to tech (less than 20 years experience) fail to realise that DEI measures were invented to tackle literal racism and misogeny in tech hiring. Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine. You could have…

> Companies would routinely screen out resumes from people whose names weren't white enough or who were a bit too feminine Could you provide any details on this? I've been in tech for more than 20 years and never heard of anything like what you stated.

Could you provide any details on this?

Not really. Nothing that can't easily be dismissed as anecdotal any way. But when lots of people have the same anecdotes you start to ask questions. People did, and now we have DEI initiatives.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#468

Post by kmeisthax » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #290

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

The key thing is there needs to be a falsifiable condition whereby we agree these programs have achieved their primary goal, and that the risk of scope creep, corruption, or other externalities like the ones the OP mentions has exceeded the potential further benefits, so they should be wound down. I'm not going to state my opinion here, but if such a condition is not identified in any way, we should assume these grou…

The falsifiable condition is that the underlying social attitudes driving the racism/sexism/etc have dissolved.

Problem is, this is a social process that takes centuries to complete. You are never going to hit a point in a single institution where you can say "We fixed our diversity problem, let's go home", because it can just come back as you hire more people and older hires leave.

Furthermore, society is frustratingly prone to generating new discriminatory attitudes. America is pretty conscious of a handful of very specific racial minorities, and we have a vague idea of what sexism looks like, but we have little knowledge of things like caste discrimination[0], colorism[1], classism and so on.

To fully explain why this is a problem, try re-reading your original comment, but pretend it's talking about the police instead of DEI initiatives. What's our falsifiable condition where we say "ok, all the crimes are solved, let's abolish the police?"

[0] Discrimination based on the occupation of your ancestors, typically driven by religious beliefs. India is the poster child for this though Japan had a form of it too.

[1] Skin-color discrimination within a specific race. We don't see this in the US or Canada all that often because the mix of European ancestry that we brought over and called "White" is universally one skin color. Latin America has this in droves.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#469

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

pocman wrote: post #219

backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

>> I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. DEI efforts try to conflate ethnicity+gender, effectively trying to build the effort on the backs of black, hispanic, and indigenous populations -- but try to count gender as well. Effectively, the DEI outcomes I see at companies end up being wealthy…

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#470

Post by PuppyTailWags » Mon, Feb 06, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

hnuser123456 wrote: post #450

The5thElephant wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know for a fact a lot of the people participating in these communities were fully adults, and the age of the people being racist does little to mitigate the impact it has on the people on the receiving end of it. I find it really bizarre how many people here are insistent on diminishing or excusing the experience the original commenter had.

I find it bizarre you're diminishing mine. I got roasted by leetcode pros and othered by turbonerds too. That's humanity. I bet they haven't gotten as far as me since then, and that's an attitude that anyone who has faced pointless discrimination should keep in mind.

I think it's nuanced. Women experience way more sexual harassment and being stalked than men online, even though men as slightly more likely to experience any online harassment in general. I can totally understand being specifically stalked or sexually harassed is on a totally different field than being called a retard for a suboptimal leetcode answer.