I know this has nothing to do with the subject of this post, but this is a prime example of why I greatly dislike the widespread use of obscure acronyms especially prevalent in the US. It took way too long to process that PoC meant ”Person of Color” and not ”Proof of Concept”.
Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
81–90 of 898 posts
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#82Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.
Because people believe that social class is your own fault. That people can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they weren't lazy. Not that I agree with this.
This. In US especially, the thought processes around race are just ...catastrophically delusional due to our terrible history with it. And by that I mean it seems to reduce us to rituals like DEI because we simply are terrible at reckoning with it in meaningful, material ways.
But the resistance to dealing with race and class together is real, in part because class is seen as individual problem. Race is seen as more cultural, systemic, or the province a minority running around with sheets on their heads.
I've personally only seen strong efforts to dissect them both, in earnest, at the same time, in the margins of society.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#83> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I get this... but is the contrary worse? you've very possibly missed out on jobs at the expense of a less qualified white person. There's some evidence that even having a "black sounding name" results in resumes being looked over. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-appli... Inclusivity initiatives can be problematic, but p…
Applying real world hard from theoretical data is exactly why DIE should die. It is absolutely absurd to assume that data supporting racism (ie: black people can't get jobs because they are somehow handicapped) is more applicable than data showing equality of opportunity.
Play this logic game: besides racism, why do you think these resumes are passed over?
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#84Damn yeah it sounds like your company is really clumsy and a bit patronising in how they've implemented or communicated these initiatives. I think if I was in your position I would feel the same way. I wish I had some advice for you, I think only you and other PoC in your company would know whether mentioning this to HR would help the situation or make it worse and more annoying :/
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#85> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…
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> Please take a moment and reflect on why these sorts of initiatives exist.
These sorts of initiatives are trying to cure a racial or sexual bias with a different sort of racial or sexual bias. How does the question "why they exist" help those of us who think, in Kant's deontological terms, that racial or sexual biases are wrong?
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#86> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…
The U.S. has a long history of discriminating against brown people and an especially nasty history of discriminating against black people. This discrimination was so ingrained amongst the white population that after desegregation public pools declined. Blacks were discriminated against when it came to getting a mortgage. Whites fled the major cities to the suburbs leading to cities having gutted public schools due to lack of funding.
How does a nation overcome that legacy with its accompanying negative effects on people of color? We aren’t all equal when the effects of centuries of policies and attitudes can still be seen. I don’t know the answer but I think it is OK for companies to be cognizant of these issues and attempt to go out of their way to hire qualified people of color.
It sucks for one to feel they didn’t get a job because they are white but I think this doesn’t happen in statistically significant numbers. It’s known that people with “black sounding” names are less likely to get interviews. I don’t know the solution. I suspect that if we didn’t tie health care to employment and had a better system for unemployed people then the issue of reverse discrimination would largely go away.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#87And thus, hiring for diversity is just another form of discrimination.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#88"...it would be beneficial if DEI initiatives were confidential and kept "hush hush" within a company." "...is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling." It might be most beneficial for individuals if it's kept-low key. It's best for the company to scream it to the world. Or at least that's what the leaders think right now. Personally, I think any medium to large company that talks about DEI and isn't addressing t…
> It's best for the company to scream it to the world. Or at least that's what the leaders think right now.
After sitting in a room where we were told we needed to increase our “minority representation in upper management” (and I’m a mostly white manager). There were already 20% apparently, they wanted 40%.
I asked my boss, “so what does that mean to me? To me it seems like you don’t want me”
Boss: “oh no, you’re fine”
Me: “I don’t know, pretty obvious you want a higher representation of people not like me”
I quit after that. I was manager of one of the most productive research teams, created the most IP for the company, had the top projects, and yeah — lost me to this bs. I was joined by several other top people. Now they have a “diverse”, but less passionate, less competent team. Good luck with this stuff.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#89Tangential to the current discussion but why do I always sense a reluctance to include matters relating to social class in these programs? When I bring it up during D&I discussions I'll usually get blank stares, and in one instance there were crude comments made about needing to beef up building security first.
That's definitely true. As an example, if you're a low-class white male kid, you're actually quite disadvantaged compared to the general population (for example in educational outcomes). But the DEI initiatives in most companies won't recognize this, as they often don't look past skin color and gender.
My brother is about 8 years younger than I, and we both grew up in a small city, but city none the less.
There really wasn’t talk about sexuality/gender beyond someone being gay vs straight, or some group of kids being in a gang (there were a few subgroups depending on ethnicity, which they proclaimed themselves)
He’s nearly out of high school, and now it’s very much focused on DEI. After the states standardized testing is accomplished, most focus is on equality of outcome talk, about how he being a young white male has oppressed groups of people unconsciously, and that he should feel guilty.
Fortunately he’s smart, and questioned this at a young age. And a family that accepts him and helps him. But I fear this stuff could make less well off kids feel excluded, shunned, and guilty, and could ferment vengeful ideologies against society, which we need far less of.
It’s sad how divided as a country we are. I hope for us to get past this, even as cliche this sounds, for the children.
Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company
#90(Black man here)
Two things can be true at once.
I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on.
That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aimed at cultivating black people in tech. Prior to this, in the earlier internet age, you had to cut your teeth on IRC and forums. That was where technical people were in the computer tech space.
Do you know VIRULENTLY anti-black (or woman, or gay) these communities were? I can't begin to describe it. That is totally off-putting to someone who has the ability succeed but does not want to deal with the hate. There's also the fact that most (read: all) of the computing pioneers are white. I respect all of those people, but it does help to have someone to look up to. I'm positive that Satya and Sundar are great motivators for indian kids to look up to (as they should be).
These DEI initiatives aren't perfect in any way, but the goal is to give the affected groups the foundations to succeed. To put people in the affected communities out front as role models. I accept the annoyances for the sake of good and progress.
EDIT: In the below thread are many people who personally identify as omnipresent IRC Gods, so my experience must have happened in an alternate universe. My bad.