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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#211

Post by spoiler »

dylan604 wrote: post #151
catiopatio wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s completely, totally, and absolutely incorrect. I spent decades on IRC starting in the early 90s, and this is a politically-driven contemporary re-imagination of what existed at the time. We were open to all because we ourselves didn’t fit in elsewhere.

[flagged]

My experience is different, too. I've never experienced these racist/sexists IRC communities in the past either. Sure, there'd be the occasional asshole like everywhere else online, but they'd get warned (and banned eventually).

Why is your comment so passive aggressive, though? While the counter claim hasn't presented any proof, the same holds true for the original claim.

You seem to be only thinking critically of the comment that goes against your confirmation bias. It's not a good habit to have.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#212

Post by tmnstr85 »

I had my boss and the CTO (both Black) tell me I was no longer "part of their culture". This was after mid year reviews where attendance at DEI events was the center of discussion.

There is a thin line between personal and professional when dealing with DEI, and it is a tough line to walk. I agree that two things can be true at once.

I also believe that every individual has the ability to break cycles of hate and prejudice, regardless of what we have experienced and encountered. If we are to have hope in the human race, I pray the ability to choose peace is what saves us all.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#213

Post by John23832 »

bradlys wrote: post #187
backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

We’ve hired people at my jobs (big tech to startups in SV) that were underqualified because of diversity measures. If we had ran them through the typical interview gauntlet with the same rubric, they wouldn’t pass. We often changed the interview format or the rubric when presented with someone who was URT pool. I’ve talked to enough managers who complain about lackluster employees and how they’re not fireable because…

The solution is simple, hire better minority candidates.

There are minority candidates who can thrive at all levels of tech. Nobody is telling your to hire subpar candidates. That's on your company's lazy implementation of their inclusion efforts, not on DEI.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#214

Post by chuckhendo »

HideousKojima wrote: post #182
chuckhendo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This take is radically wrong, and you're just reinforcing OP's insecurities. How do you know that OP has a job at the expense of a white person? How do you know that OP isn't in fact the best candidate for the job? You're making a whole lot of assumptions here that are bordering on outright racism

While it's not certain that the OP was hired over a white person, it is mathematically certain that DEI policies cause whites to be discriminated against in aggregate. 1. There are fewer qualified black and Hispanic candidates per capita (i.e. without a college degree, without the right experience, etc.) than white and Asian candidates. The cause of this is irrelevant to the argument, it is factually true. 2. There a…

It's completely fair to look at the big picture, but it's dangerous to look at specific situations and make assumptions is the only point I was trying to make. Without DEI, OP may have still gotten the position he has. We have no way of knowing that. I wasn't fond of the original replier making it seem like he got the position over a white person only due to the color of his skin, which is an unfair assumption to make

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#215

Post by surement »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #174
catiopatio wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you joking? We were absolutely not “virulently” anti- anyone on early IRC. We didn’t even have real names or photos. Nobody had any idea who was behind the keyboard, and that was okay.

to be fair "there are no girls on the internet" is technically somewhat misogynistic and was a popular meme of the era.

I've never heard this and there were plenty of girls on IRC

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#216

Post by Swizec »

version_five wrote: post #97
NickC25 wrote: post #33

> but creating townhall meetings and parading your black/brown employees around like show ponies is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling. It doesn't just undermine the self-esteem of a PoC, it undermines the self-esteem of white folks, too. Hiring or promoting people due to their skin color is just wrong, no matter what skin color that is. As a white dude, seeing my PoC teammates in the past celebrated not for…

> PoC > White folks I just want to mention that one of the worst aspects of all this is trying to sort people according to (here apparently a binary) label. There is not really such thing as either of these categories - it's stereotyping of the worst kind, and takes us back many generations

I’ll never forget a coworker explaining to me that in America she’s PoC, but back home she’s white. That really blew my mind.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#217

Post by HideousKojima »

moomoo11 wrote: post #176

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it. I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do. I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

I always get confused when people say they need to have people who look like them in prominent roles in order to feel welcome in a hobby/career/whatever. I'm a fan of boxing, and my favorite boxer is a black Muslim. I do some hobby-level game dev on the side, and most of my favorite devs that I look up to are Japanese. Young black men seem to disproportionately love Dragon Ball Z, with an Asian-appearing main character based on the Chinese epic Journey to the West whose hair turns blond when he gets angry and powers up.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#218

Post by tootie »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #132

Hiring preferences for PoC is discriminating against all not PoC. It is in practice exactly what these initiatives claim to be fighting, bigotry.

That infers the baseline is equality. The reality is that hiring without explicit guidelines will bias against POC. DEI is about counteracting unconscious (or conscious) bias.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#219

Post by pocman »

backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

>> I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company.

DEI efforts try to conflate ethnicity+gender, effectively trying to build the effort on the backs of black, hispanic, and indigenous populations -- but try to count gender as well. Effectively, the DEI outcomes I see at companies end up being wealthy white women getting more opportunities, and the company conveniently checking off DEI as "done"

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#220

Post by [deleted] »

pessimizer wrote: post #180
Forgeties79 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe people are promoted one over another strictly due to performance, even when DEI isn't a consideration. I wish I could find the study but this one fascinating read pointed out that the greatest predictor of whether you'd get promotions/raises/etc. was whether or not you were 1) white, 2) male... Those 2 aren't surprising but then it continued: ...3) 6ft tall or taller, 4) "conventionally handsome" (v…

The bias is toward looking like a better version of your boss. Match him in everything culturally, but be cooler than him, better looking that him, taller than him. As a black man, I'm pretty sure I got more than one programming job because I played in punk bands in the 90s. This would be bad if the demographics of the people hiring were representative of the general population. They're not, so it makes it worse for…

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