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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#171

Post by jimbokun »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #78
monero-xmr wrote: post #25

It boils down to a core philosophical difference - do you want to emphasize equal access to opportunity, or do you want to emphasize equal outcomes? Some would argue it isn't an either-or thing, and we can do both at once, but I argue mandated equality of outcomes is insidious and causes social strife. If you are a minority and get hired, and the company has an explicit policy of hiring N% of minorities, then you wil…

On the other hand, if you only emphasize equal access of opportunity you will never reach equal outcomes. White men have centuries of cultural expectations, family wealth, and other advantages, and minorities have none of those advantages, and may be only a few decades (if that) removed from illiterate, impoverished inequality. Give those groups equal opportunity and it's unsurprising when an inequality of outcomes i…

Why do you think it will stop after a few decades?

What if by that point men are doing categorically worse in employment and entrepreneurship than women, and demand their own compensatory programs?

Where does it end?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#172

Post by giantg2 »

cloudier wrote: post #118
jcims wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen quite a few people angrily push back on statements like 'pipeline problem' and I don't understand why. Obviously there's more to it than that, but it's also that (with hard numbers to back it up).

I think it’s because focusing on the pipeline problem focuses on the parts of hiring that a company doesn’t have control over. Those decisions often happen in high school and tech companies don’t have direct influence in these decisions. Instead, companies are better off focusing on making the later parts of the pipeline less leaky. Minorities tend to leave tech at a higher rate than average due to factors the compan…

I generally agree. However, they should be addressing both.

They should have outreach programs in high schools, partner with schools to offer intro to coding, or even help sponsor some students for after school coding classes. Sure, these won't necessarily convert these individuals into employees. But it would be part of being a good corporate citizen even if those students end up going to other companies. So there are things they can do. They aren't completely powerless.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#173

Post by ksec »

All roads to hell are paved with good intentions.

People may want to look back, given most comments on HN are not deleted, between ~2014 to 2020. How DEI took over nearly every single Tech company, and then somehow spread across different domains and industry.

Yes, Twitter along with MSM played a big part of it.

And yes, it took until 2021 / 2022 before we (could?) had any push back. Remember when people were trying to cancel DHH? Most of what you wrote were true since Day 1. And it is not like anything is unforeseen or new. But we cant even talk about it, writing the above in 2018 you will have likely been labeled as Trump supporter even if you are not an American.

Basically the hypocrisy level in unreal.

It has die down quite a bit, I dont see an angry Microsoft employees shouting or tweeting in all caps about DEI and pronouns to non-native English speakers. ( It is somehow always Microsoft ) We have enough "influencers" backing the some of these Anti-DEI / Woke movements. ( Although the word Woke is now being used by Right Wing meaning something different )

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#174

Post by Quarrelsome »

catiopatio wrote: post #119
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Are you joking? We were absolutely not “virulently” anti- anyone on early IRC. We didn’t even have real names or photos. Nobody had any idea who was behind the keyboard, and that was okay.

to be fair "there are no girls on the internet" is technically somewhat misogynistic and was a popular meme of the era.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#175

Post by John23832 »

kfajdsl wrote: post #157
aliqot wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up on IRC, I have very much the same experience as you but quite opposite as I experienced hardly any racism, and nobody knew my identity either. Nobody wanted to involve their personal lives or details until recently when identity and identifying became the thing.

I'm much much younger than John23832, but I definitely recognized a lot of the same in some of the gaming communities I was a part of in the mid to late 2010s. There wasn't quite as much racism (at least in the places I hung out), but there was plenty of sexism and homophobia. It wouldn't necessarily be explicit, but there were lots of offhand comments and jokes. That's how racism (and sexism, homophobia, ...) tends…

I did FIRST (about 10 years before you, ha). FIRST is a very inclusive space by design. I think it's great.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#176

Post by moomoo11 »

I wish we would transcend to a point where we look up to people based on their achievements and separate their race from it.

I’m Asian btw. I can relate to Lebron just as much as I can relate to Neil Armstrong or Satya or Matz or Woz or Marie Curie because they are all excellent at what they did/do.

I want to be excellent like them. Because we all are humans.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#177

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

spangry wrote: post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

Us blacks only make up 7.4% of the tech industry. It's always amazing how if you were to take the anecdotes in DEI threads seriously, you would think there weren't any whites in the tech field as they had all been replaced by black people.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#178

Post by harryvederci »

mach1ne wrote: post #81

I know this has nothing to do with the subject of this post, but this is a prime example of why I greatly dislike the widespread use of obscure acronyms especially prevalent in the US. It took way too long to process that PoC meant ”Person of Color” and not ”Proof of Concept”.

IANAL, but idk. It's not an issue, imo. You gotta stay on your tip top game with your GTL to stay FTD to keep 'em DTF in MIA. Just my 2c.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#179

Post by alocasia-1 »

ejstronge wrote: post #102
joemazerino wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it was decided to chastise the downtrodden minority class.

Yes - allowing blacks in America to attend college and move into neighborhoods without the threat of being killed was an act designed to chastise them. I think posts of this nature (including OP) reflect a fear of not belonging to the dominant ‘caste’ and of being seen as either losing status (dominant caste men not getting jobs they are ‘the best’ for); or, alternatively, lower caste men wanting to be seen as valuab…

Thank you for pointing out that last part. I think folks forget how vital that foot in the door is/was, whether it's the school on your resume or the reference from the internship your uncle got for you. You might get 99% of the way there by hard work but if the other applicant's essentially grandfathered in (analogy intentional), what have you gained?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#180

Post by pessimizer »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #99
DubiousPusher wrote: post #76

> "Why should I feel proud of my accomplishments, when the accomplishments were spoon-fed to me by the company because of my skin color? If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here?" I'm not a PoC but I am disabled. I have uncorrectable low vision. My perspective is different. If they want to hire me and promote me because I'm blind that's fine by me. I'm just happy that for once, somethi…

> I don't believe people are promoted one over another strictly due to performance, even when DEI isn't a consideration. I wish I could find the study but this one fascinating read pointed out that the greatest predictor of whether you'd get promotions/raises/etc. was whether or not you were 1) white, 2) male... Those 2 aren't surprising but then it continued: ...3) 6ft tall or taller, 4) "conventionally handsome" (v…

The bias is toward looking like a better version of your boss. Match him in everything culturally, but be cooler than him, better looking that him, taller than him. As a black man, I'm pretty sure I got more than one programming job because I played in punk bands in the 90s.

This would be bad if the demographics of the people hiring were representative of the general population. They're not, so it makes it worse for specific groups.

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