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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#101
Not surprised we have arrived here on HN. After BLM, there were a flurry of posts supporting DIE as if it's the tyleonal to the racism headache.

"If we hire non-whites, WE can solve systemic racism!".

People didn't stop to think that it hurts everyone all around. White people are now ignored for hires based on their race (as is the Left's proposition towards black names on resumes) and minorities are paraded around as if they are corporate mascots.

I feel for you OP. IMO the next hiring landscape is in anonymous handles providing superior results. Keep increasing your skills and climb above the DIE garbage hole.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, it was decided to chastise the downtrodden minority class.

Yes - allowing blacks in America to attend college and move into neighborhoods without the threat of being killed was an act designed to chastise them.

I think posts of this nature (including OP) reflect a fear of not belonging to the dominant ‘caste’ and of being seen as either losing status (dominant caste men not getting jobs they are ‘the best’ for); or, alternatively, lower caste men wanting to be seen as valuable in a space they continually feel they do not belong in.

I say this as a someone who is a minority who regularly is discriminated against - and who has easily attained markers of success. There is no way to avoid feeling like we do not belong, but returning us to poverty and shutting us out of jobs is definitely not a way to attain a feeling of belonging.

Finally, DEI initiatives are very public - nepotism, alma mater connections etc are not. Let’s be careful in assuming that the only non-LEET code metric used to hire people is the color of the skin or their biological sex.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#103
post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

Is the top comment on this thread seriously a reverse racism rant?

You are right about something, affirmative action is racist, but I feel it is absolutely necessary to try to balance out current inequities. I strongly believe people making arguments like yours, people fighting against affirmative action need to propose an alternative rather than just complain about it.

There are lots of people alive today that couldn't drink from the same fountain or use the same bathroom as white people, and people who had friends and family members lynched (and in the eyes of many George Floyd's death was a lynching). Their neighborhoods were bulldozed to make the highways and they were systematically excluded from housing by redlining. You won't convince me for a second that their children and grandchildren got an equal opportunity. There is so much evidence of systemic disadvantaging of PoC communities today too, underfunded schools because of how we fund schools with local property taxes, turning lots of the public school system into effectively fancy private schools for families well off enough to live in rich neighborhoods.

So I will say it again, I do think at the surface level affirmative action is racist, but it's such a simple thing to realize it seems extremely pointless to even bring up. It is fighting centuries of truly heinous racism and genocide with just a tiny bit of an attempt at positive racism and white people still find a way to be pissed off they aren't getting everything the "deserve".

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#104
~15 years ago, at a big 4 accounting firm...

One of the network engineers that I became work-friends with, as he was leaving the office at 2:15 on a Friday...

Man you always bail around this time, how do you get away with that? I'm a Mexican with a CCIE - what are they going to do, fire me?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#105
Personally, I really dislike DEI initiatives and think they should be avoided. Just treat everyone the same. How hard is it, really? Unfortunately, because I am a white man that express these thoughts I am now a racist and a sexist even if the ones who actually commit the racist/sexist/etc acts nowadays mostly are the ones who claim to fight it.

If more people would view people as individuals instead of some kind of collective, I believe a lot would be improved.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#106
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumption was suggested by the OP, not me. Thanks for suggesting I'm racist, but I'm basically immune to such thought stopping non-arguments at this point. If disagreeing with making hiring decisions on the basis of skin colour is racist, then I suppose I'm racist.

OP never said he was hired due to the color of his skin though. Not once. Is it possible that's the case? Sure. But for all we know, he was hired on merit.

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#107

Interestingly enough, Pew Research ran a study[0] a few years back which found that the majority of whites, blacks, and Hispanics reject race-conscious hiring—even if it results in less diversity. I can only imagine what it would feel like to be a PoC in a company that has openly stated that their goal is to achieve a certain racial/ethnic composition regardless of standards. How would I not always have a sneaking su…

As a Hispanic man, I can say that I don't care about whether I earned my spot or lucked into it through my ancestry. Life isn't fair, and I'll gladly take whatever advantages I can scrounge up.

The software interview process in particular is already so capricious that I feel absolutely no shame in tilting it in my favor in any way that I can.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#108
> In my opinion, it would be beneficial if DEI initiatives were confidential and kept "hush hush" within a company.

The problem is incentives and selection bias.

Let's imagine a company that has a pretty obvious diversity problem when anyone happens to look around the room. What kind of person is likely to either be assigned "fix the diversity problem" or take on the job on their own? Probably they're someone high up the corporate ladder who has learned how to play the game.

That kind of person already knows that being "hush hush" about anything doesn't get them the next promotion, the big bonus. It doesn't achieve their personal goals. That's not how they got here.

And if this person is someone who meets the 'diversity' label (because who else would they assign it to?) in a company that has a clear diversity problem that they don't seem to understand (usually caused by implicit bais the leadership have and will never acknowledge exist), then this person has already learned that being quietly successful gets them no where. The only way to succeed is to do so loudly, publicly, and undeniably.

The goal isn't to increase diversity. It's to get the person in charge of increasing diversity a bigger paycheck.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#109

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> Prior to this, in the earlier internet age, you had to cut your teeth on IRC and forums. That was where technical people were in the computer tech space.

> Do you know VIRULENTLY anti-black (or woman, or gay) these communities were? I can't begin to describe it. That is totally off-putting to someone who has the ability succeed but does not want to deal with the hate.

Wow, thank you. Gives me a new perspective.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#110
As a white european dude, who's ancestors never oppressed anyone, rather were oppressed by other white dudes through history. Can you ELI5 why the DEI exists and what problems does it solve, from but from a perspective of someone of my position?

Not a troll-bait question, but I sincerely try to comprehend this as to me the mere term people of color is the uttermost racist label imaginable. Also, that presumes I'm from people of no-color...

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