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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#241

Post by spoiler »

eddsh1994 wrote: post #207
spoiler wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chances are you're writing this message on a C/C++ OS running a C/C++ browser engine. NodeJS and v8 are C++ applications. That's because there was hardly any mainstream alternatives (sans C, I guess) within its domains (ie systems programming and related field) until recently. That's not to say people haven't wished for alternatives. God knows I have

I've only worked in tech for a decade but I remember seeing this back then, and can find articles two decades ago about the same thing. There's just so much code in C++ that can't be re-written or can be re-written but will take hundreds of developer years. For example Rust doesn't even have a spec. I don't think I could use Rust for regulated healthcare/defense fields? There's not really that much support in hardwar…

Right, you're absolutely correct that C++ is currently the defacto standard (or maybe not even just defacto) in those fields.

I have a lot of opinions on the situation. Some are on technical merits, some boil down to humans doing human things.

It's difficult for me to give C++ much credit on that front due to the fact it's had such an incredibly long head start and tremendous amount of effort put into it. Similar efforts exist for Rust now, but they're only starting.

Maybe something better than Rust comes along eventually too. I'm not married to Rust. That doesn't mean I'll want Rust to fail or disappear. It just means there will be more choices.

I'm just not going to let my tools hold me back. Same goes for the C++ and Rust situation currently.

Also, it's possible that it's just a quirk of preference. Some people prefer mangoes to pineapple, some are the opposite.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#242

Post by lolpython »

dahfizz wrote: post #226
joezydeco wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are financial firms griping about the lack of developers. They're some of the highest paid developers in the world. But working for these companies is also insanely stressful. Long hours, high pressure. Maybe that reputation has caught up to them.

The key to being a developer in finance is to work in a software shop. Working at a bank / prop firm is going to be extremely stressful. Working at the shop that all the big banks buy their trading software from is like 80-90% of the pay but none of the stress. I love it. I get to do real, hard engineering for big pay without working on ad tech or javascript.

Where is this?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#243

Post by tw1984 »

warmwaffles wrote: post #224
tw1984 wrote: post #201

Unless you are in gaming or HFT, setting out to learn C++ in 2023 is a major career limiting factor. Why would someone burn a sizable chunk of their energy & free time to just entertain those C++ standard committee members sitting on a pile of their RSUs who intentionally delayed almost every single reasonable additions to the language. We are talking about a language that took almost 40 years to get networking suppo…

> ... setting out to learn C++ in 2023 is a major career limiting factor. No it is not. > Let's be clear, learning C++ in 2023 is like migration to Russia/China/Cuba No it is not. > you give away all your reasonable freedoms & funs to submit yourself to the mercy of a close group of "elites" who try so damn hard to dictate your life & work. No you do not. It is not a slavery operation. Learning C/C++ now is a good fo…

Please stop mixing C and C++ together. Learn C gets you to know all the underlying mechanisms. Learning C++ gives you nothing else but some overmarked concepts like OO.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#244

Post by jstx1 »

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

> because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year

Can you tell us more about this? What's their reason for it?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#245

Post by AshamedCaptain »

ggambetta wrote: post #232
inamberclad wrote: post #55

A lot of experienced Google engineers are now going to be looking for work. This includes people with decades of C++ experience.

C++ at Google is almost a different language (and nonstandard tooling and libraries and workflows). It's entirely possible to have decades of experience that don't translate to anything useful outside of Google. To give you an example: I joined Google when SVN was a thing, and by the time I left* I was a senior software engineer with zero experience using git. * I have since re-joined

I really don't see that as strange. E.g. Perforce exists.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#246

Post by olvy0 »

rizzaxc wrote: post #132
TillE wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a professional C++ developer for the past 20 years, I think this sums it up well. A modern project should be able to use most of C++17 at least. Even if you still need to target some ancient garbage like Windows XP, you can use an MSVC toolchain that supports C++17. That's a good basis to work from. So your real concern is the moldy old code that's written for C++03, that's still not using std::unique_ptr…

do you have a good template (pun intended) on how to best learn modern c++? coming from Go and Typescript which have very mature devX tooling, c++ is a landmine to navigate. and that's when I already have professional experience with it (the place just didn't have strong c++ culture)

Try watching the "back to basics" videos from the last 4 years' cppcons.

But that's mostly learning modern paradigms of the language.

If you also mean the tooling, then it depends: Learn CMake which is sort of an industry standard. There are books and videos, but for a concrete experience, try looking through the CMakeLists.txt of some non-trivial C++ open source project.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#247

Post by neatze »

speedgoose wrote: post #191
neatze wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why stop there, any one who spends money on internement is unproductive human being, it is immoral to pay for Netflix instead of helping kid in Africa, right ?

The entertainment industry is useful to keep people entertained, which is good for their overall well-being. I think you don't have to feel bad about your Netflix subscription. And the sustainable development goals are not only about helping kids in Africa.

Looking forward for explanation why HFT is useless in relation to entertainment to a such substantial degree that people should stop working there.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#248

Post by lll-o-lll »

emidln wrote: post #96
cjbgkagh wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they’d have more luck hiring if they told a more accurate story.

Hiring C++ isnt especially hard because our pay is opaque. Recruiters will tell you immediately what total comp you can expect and they'll let you know what you can contractually guarantee year 1. Hiring for C++ is hard because C++ is hard and most people are quite bad at writing even somewhat reasonable code.

I think any experienced c++ dev knows there is good money in HFT. Hiring for HFT is also hard, I imagine, because the industry is parasitical. Id like to look at my work and feel that it is contributing something net positive to society.

Same with the poker machines. Recruiters gotta recruit, but I’d just make my own meth if all I cared about was the money.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#249

Post by ryandrake »

jahnu wrote: post #103
tw1984 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ is legacy. You can't just ignore the fundamentals.

Just spent two years writing a medium size fresh c++ codebase in modern style with all the warnings turned to max and nearly every static analysis tool we could throw at it from day 1. It’s been an utter pleasure with no pain that can be blamed on c++ alone. It can be done :)

Most of the stereotypical pain of C++ lives in legacy codebases where they're passing raw pointers all over the place, doing horrible things with array indexes, and poorly re-implementing the standard library containers. If you start from a base of modern C++, embrace the standard library and newer, safer data structures, it's a pleasure!

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#250

Post by stagger87 »

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

Just to clarify, you used the word "abuse" several times to describe a job where you would have to work in office between 8:30 to 5 and pull (I'm safely assuming) half a million dollars a year?
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