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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#231

Post by mywittyname »

eddsh1994 wrote: post #69
mywittyname wrote: post #45

> Where are all the C++ programmers? People are seemingly scared away from the language by a terrible stigma: the notion that it is a legacy program. I think this is because the pool of jobs for C++ programmers is so small. I took a position as a web dev at a company whose main product was a CAD application. Most of my work was in NodeJS, but occasionally, I'd have to dip into the C/C++ layer to make some API changes…

C++ is here for longer than your career will last. Outside of HN/Web bubbles it's still used everywhere. Chances are you're writing this message on a C/C++ OS running a C/C++ browser engine. NodeJS and v8 are C++ applications. I went to a lecture by Stroustrup once who was asked what he thought of Java and jokingly said he didn't like to be negative about C++ applications. While this is a joke and Java isn't actually…

> C++ is here for longer than your career will last.

How many C++ jobs are there currently compared to, for example, NodeJS? 1000:1? 10,000:1? I have no idea, but I do know that there are very, very few c++ opportunities in the midwest.

As in engineering, careers are about trade-offs: we can go deep into a tech to make us very qualified for a narrow sub-set of jobs; or we can go broad and be less qualified for a wider selection of jobs. I've decided that broad, shallow skills are more useful than deep, narrow skill sets.

I think the poor availability of C++ jobs is what keeps people from focusing on it as a career, and I was providing a personal anecdote to express that idea. While the software I'm using to write this message may be written in C++, the company who owns the software I'm using to write this message isn't going to hire me.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#232

Post by ggambetta »

inamberclad wrote: post #55

A lot of experienced Google engineers are now going to be looking for work. This includes people with decades of C++ experience.

C++ at Google is almost a different language (and nonstandard tooling and libraries and workflows). It's entirely possible to have decades of experience that don't translate to anything useful outside of Google. To give you an example: I joined Google when SVN was a thing, and by the time I left* I was a senior software engineer with zero experience using git.

* I have since re-joined

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#233

Post by kibwen »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #158
spoiler wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chances are you're writing this message on a C/C++ OS running a C/C++ browser engine. NodeJS and v8 are C++ applications. That's because there was hardly any mainstream alternatives (sans C, I guess) within its domains (ie systems programming and related field) until recently. That's not to say people haven't wished for alternatives. God knows I have

There have been a million things hyped as alternatives, and even though it is very easy to argue retrospectively that they were not really alternatives, they definitely were hyped as much or even more than e.g. Rust is hyped these days. think Java and Go. I have already _lived_ an era where I thought C++ would eventually be replaced with Java and I would have to learn Java (this was so long ago). The effect was so pe…

> only for C++ to eventually prevail over Java

What? Java dominates C++ in number of professional programmers. It totally ate C++'s lunch. Meanwhile, universities teach Java, C, Python, and a bit of Scheme if they're feeling spicy.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#234

Post by nostrademons »

perlgeek wrote: post #228
nostrademons wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW most of the folks who work with C++ in the financial industry are not really "messing with people's money" except in the sense of trying to exploit market inefficiencies to take it. In a typical quant hedge fund no actual money changes hands; instead, the C++ parts are there to perform analytics extremely quickly, which then feeds into an execution engine (usually also in C++, or sometimes Rust or assembly) that…

> except in the sense of trying to exploit market inefficiencies to take it that's precisely the bad part about it

Well yes, but the gaming industry is all about exploiting psychological efficiencies to take your money. Big Tech (in its advertising/retail/OS forms) is all about exploiting psychological inefficiencies to help other people take your money, and then taking a cut of it.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#235

Post by John23832 »

jahnu wrote: post #103
tw1984 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ is legacy. You can't just ignore the fundamentals.

Just spent two years writing a medium size fresh c++ codebase in modern style with all the warnings turned to max and nearly every static analysis tool we could throw at it from day 1. It’s been an utter pleasure with no pain that can be blamed on c++ alone. It can be done :)

I think that's great if you're writing from scratch, but I think it misses the point that the previous poster was making.

Modern "pleasant" C++ is a subset of all of C++. In the realm of all C++, you can get into some REALLY bad code. That includes terse C.

I work in the NYC market, and have bounced between finance and tech. The quality of C++ at a tech company, even legacy code, is magnitudes better than the stuff in finance.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#236

Post by User23 »

gumby wrote: post #93
User23 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only comp structure that would get me doing that job would be a market rate base and points on the algo earnings.

...which is how they pay

I freely confess my ignorance, so thank you for that. If they will make a remote deal it might be time to dust off the ol' angle brackets.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#237

Post by aidenn0 »

teeray wrote: post #22

C++ is the only language I know where you can think you’ve learned it, then stumble upon a completely alien codebase. The decades-long history of the language has spawned all kinds of dialects and template-powered Lovecraftian horrors.

As someone who is a fan of Common Lisp, this state of the world kind of grinds my gears. "Lisp isn't suitable for large teams because it's too customizable" while it takes me an order of magnitude more time and effort to come up to speed on a new C++ code-base (day job) compared to doing the same on a new CL code-base (hobby).

Some of it is tooling: It's trivial to walk through expansions of Lisp macros, while the tooling for C++ is ... less ergonomic to say the least.

Some of it is a weird combination of technical/cultural. You can do a lot more in Lisp without reaching for macros as compared to C++ and templates. In addition, every CL style guide ever says "don't use a macro when a function will do." There's also the culture of "Read *Let over Lambda" (a book on Lisp macrology), now don't ever do any of that unless you absolutely have to"

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#239

Post by klyrs »

wwweston wrote: post #60
joezydeco wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are financial firms griping about the lack of developers. They're some of the highest paid developers in the world. But working for these companies is also insanely stressful. Long hours, high pressure. Maybe that reputation has caught up to them.

This speaks to the point in the article "The real problem is that C++ is neither easy nor loved," which they offset with "The language may be hard. But it's also worth it." The problem is that there's a law of diminishing returns to compensation. If you can work with a tool you like that helps you meet milestones and general expectations for $X00k generally leading to pleasant days, or can work with a tool that makes…

They're focused on the language. The language isn't the problem. Of the people I've met in finance, there are some really strong and offputting trends: they're uniformly dismissive of work/life balance, they're almost uniformly the worst stereotype of tech-bro, and aside from the rampant cocaine use, they're hugely socially conservative, and every single one values profit over ethics.

It's not the language, it's the extremely toxic culture. Any programmer worth their salt can march into a nasty codebase of whatever language, and make it dance. But financial folk don't want to employ humans with all their complexity, they want robots who will run themselves into the ground for cash. So they get young men who burn out quickly and retire ASAP. The problem isn't the language. The problem isn't the pay. The problem is the extractive culture. Finance folks focus on short term profits to the detriment of their future. And now they're wondering "where can we find programmers" after they've been burning them like so many trees. Go figure.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#240

Post by dahfizz »

perlgeek wrote: post #228
nostrademons wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW most of the folks who work with C++ in the financial industry are not really "messing with people's money" except in the sense of trying to exploit market inefficiencies to take it. In a typical quant hedge fund no actual money changes hands; instead, the C++ parts are there to perform analytics extremely quickly, which then feeds into an execution engine (usually also in C++, or sometimes Rust or assembly) that…

> except in the sense of trying to exploit market inefficiencies to take it that's precisely the bad part about it

How does your employer pay you if they don't take money from anyone?
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