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Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

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Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#121

Post by lincpa »

kneebonian wrote: post #46
bbor wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If academia had a better effort/reward ratio pre-“X-level”, wouldn’t society reap the benefits of increased interest in those careers?

Well I mean Einstein, Netwon, Maxwell, and Galileo were probably more valuable to advancing our understanding of physics than every one of their contemporaries combined. The funny part is that Einstein wasn't even in academia until after he was famous. If anything this speaks to me that we want only those people in the field who would do it even if there was no reward for they will be the ones who produce earth shatt…

[dead]

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#122

Post by bentt »

Rayhem wrote: post #97
bentt wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The myth that more competition means you get a better result absolutely does not hold and needs to die. There's a fundamental equilibrium shift when you spend more resources competing than you do on progressing. Source?

I did not make the original claim, that more rules stifles progress. Please show me the experiments done to demonstrate this or the logic used in deducing it and I will attempt to devise a counterexample.

To be clear, my claim was specific. It was that if you make rules about how hard (long) someone is allowed to work, you will stifle progress. That is because the highest performers who accomplish the most per unit time will have their output reduced. I can't see how this is not objectively true.

So if Wendy can get 2.0 units of work done per hour and Bob can get 1.0 units of work done per hour, then Bob has to either reduce his expectations or try to get the rules changed so Wendy can only work half as long as she normally would. I'm specifically saying that rule should not be allowed.

Also, there's nothing saying that a unit of time worked is being spent on competition instead of progress. Some people will spend their time undercutting their competitors, others will spend their time on true work. But saying that you can only work for N hours per day/week doesn't account for that.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#123

Post by MichaelZuo »

sideshowb wrote: post #96
bentt wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The myth that more competition means you get a better result absolutely does not hold and needs to die. There's a fundamental equilibrium shift when you spend more resources competing than you do on progressing. Source?

Game theory.

Can you point to the source? 'Game theory' is a huge field.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#124

Post by MichaelZuo »

_Wintermute wrote: post #6
Overtonwindow wrote: post #2

Im surprised the author does not mention tenure. I went to two uni's, one research based and one not. Once the professors hit tenure, the research professors mostly abdicated their teaching responsibilities, whereas the non-research just kept on teaching. I suspect once the author becomes tenured, and thus essentially immune to being fired or laid off, their tone will change.

They didn't mention tenure because it doesn't exist in the UK or Norway.

So how are professors assured they won't be sacked for expressing controversial views?

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#125

Post by kelipso »

Beldin wrote: post #114
thwayunion wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're forgetting the cost of funding students, but also there are costs in securing prestige for your institution. But why does he need students to do his own research? I made a similar calculation and went into industry. I am now at the point where I could self-fund an indefinite post-doc (with benefits) at the risk-free rate of return. By the time I would be going up for Full Professor, I'll be able to self-fund…

> But why does he need students to do his own research? That's a phenomenally good question. Short answer: because of incentives in academia( ). To be high up in the academic hierarchy( ), you want top-ranked publications. So you work on those and score a few - good on you! However, a researcher in the same field outdid you by publishing their own work AND supervising a student. That increased their output, so they g…

Benefit to that is you are training the next generation. Do research on your own, good, but have ten grad students working for you and you can basically multiply your output by ten. Note, the grad students a majority of the time won't be able to do the research without your advice, this is just a fact; there are exceptions but that's just how it is the majority of the time.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#126

Post by kelipso »

ModernMech wrote: post #91
thwayunion wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But at the same time, I only work 4 days a week, 28 weeks of the year, and those days I'm done at noon. TBH I have no idea what number of "bullshit hours" I work, but I spend the vast majority of my time working on things I'd probably be doing anyways. I certainly think what I'm working on is more interesting than what I'd almost certainly be doing if I had accepting one of my TT offers. > If it were, I think we'd…

> but I spend the vast majority of my time working on things I'd probably be doing anyways But is it your project? Or is it your employers, and do they actually own it? If you’re fired, do you still get to work on that project? > what I'm working on is more interesting than what I'd almost certainly be doing if I had accepting one of my TT offers I’m curious, why wouldn’t you just decide to work on a project that was…

One big thing is it's basically impossible to start doing research when you are 40 or 50 after spending 10 to 20 years not doing research. You might imagine that you can, and I do know a few people who think they can, but no it's extremely difficult and basically not happening. Is there literally any highly cited journal paper with a first author who didn't do research for 20 years?

Also, you have way more energy, drive, creativity when you are young and you just spent 10 to 20 years on other things instead of doing research during a time when you could have had the most impact.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#127

Post by thwayunion »

dkqmduems wrote: post #112
thwayunion wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But is it your project? Or is it your employers, and do they actually own it? If you’re fired, do you still get to work on that project? Varies. I optimize my employment situation for my personal ROI. But it turns out that making money off of even excellent scientific work is often very hard and involves insane amounts of slog. Like 1 hour of science to 10 hours of not-science. So usually employment and assignment…

How about those world class mathematicians working at subway?

What about them? There’s no way they would be able to get an academic position, which requires orders of magnitude more mental health fortitude than an industry position.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#128

Post by thwayunion »

mschuster91 wrote: post #116
thwayunion wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other side, spending is a huge problem as well. Of course. But universities will 100% fire tenured faculty before they kill off a D1 football program or spend down endowment principal. So from the perspective of academic laborers, it's a moot point.

Government could enforce both of these. Threaten universities to either split off their commercial activities or to lose tax benefits. And tax endowments.

No arguments here. Your European is showing ;-)

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#129

Post by xyzelement »

kneebonian wrote: post #45
xyzelement wrote: post #3

The story resonates but the conclusion doesn't. As an immigrant, I relate to what she says: feel pressure to work hard -> work hard -> achieve results -> benefit from those results. As far as I can tell, the system works. She got an opportunity, worked her ass off, produced a lot, and attained a great position/life as consequence. Those who chose an easier path, perhaps were less stressed but also didn't do or get as…

It's interesting you say this, I've realized it true in mine own life, I worked very hard, and admittedly was blessed with some wonderful opportunities early on in my career that led to me being far ahead of many of my peers age wise. I spent several years early in my career and life working very hard, working, full time school, full time parent, etc. Because of that I am now at a place where as my children have the…

// As my mother said "Life has to get hard at some point it can get hard now or it can get hard later."

She's wise. The way I express the same idea - I'd rather make my own life hard on my own terms, than deal with it just being hard and struggling.

Easy example - it's much easier to chose to save money when you have it (forgo something) than to somehow deal with not having money later. Or - it's totally fine and cute to have to live with roommates in your 20s so you can save and invest. Living with roommates in your 40s because you haven't saved and invested - less cute.

Re: Academia’s culture of overwork almost broke me, so I’m working to undo it

#130

Post by midoridensha »

Ultimatt wrote: post #32
xyzelement wrote: post #3

The story resonates but the conclusion doesn't. As an immigrant, I relate to what she says: feel pressure to work hard -> work hard -> achieve results -> benefit from those results. As far as I can tell, the system works. She got an opportunity, worked her ass off, produced a lot, and attained a great position/life as consequence. Those who chose an easier path, perhaps were less stressed but also didn't do or get as…

The point you missed is she got where she is with a very very large amount of luck too. Most grants have about 100+ equally high quality applicants at this point in history. If you dont make it 8 years out of PhD (which is a huge investment of your productive life) you get shit canned forever on funding and "early career" opportunities. The system is exploitative in the extreme.

Sounds like the best way to win at this game is not to play in the first place.
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