> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…
The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
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Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#42I've read this article some years ago and always wanted to ask: besides size, what were the arguments against Lisp in JPL? Author's position is biased, as he recognizes, then I'm curious about the other side in this story.
One of the footnotes mentions that multilanguage integration was causing some headaches, and (the author's bias showing through) that is blamed by the author on the IPC server being crashy because it was C, not Lisp.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
The basic premise of MBA programs is arguably to create interchangeable managers. One size fits all is less efficient at both the managerial and employee levels, the advantage is largely risk minimization.
Yup Except that it is only local or small risk minimization; the catastrophic existential risks end up maximized to the point of becoming inevitable. With companies, the MBAs happily optimize away anything that isn't immediate revenue. So manufacturing gets offshored, along with all the deep knowledge of how to make things. R&D gets shrunk and minimized because it is a quarterly expense with returns not immediately s…
Because China is experiencing all kinds of internal demographic and political turmoil, and they’re still much further behind than people realize, what I worry about more in the long run is decay of western education than anything externally driven. We are our own worst enemy, and we risk hollowing out what has historically been the engine of innovation for the majority of the world (I am talking primarily about the pipeline feeding people into US University systems since World War II and high level technical/tinkering environments, as I think European education seems to have lost a decent amount of innovative capability a while ago, though I know much less about it). That problem is deeper than the problem of products of that system being sold off as you describe, but related. That poses a far bigger long term risk to domestic and global prosperity than China, imo, although China is still a massive risk for at least the next decade if Xi continues his current trajectory, and the education problem is of course related to our ability to confront that.
I see two extremely important problems that need to be solved:
1. The most intelligent and competent members of the public need to be pulled from all backgrounds, colors and creeds and be rigorously evaluated purely for ability and merit regardless of all other criteria. Historically there has been bias in favor of the host nation population. Now there is bias in favor of restorative education and nepotism. While truly restorative education has merit, it cannot interfere with attempts to identify and nurture the best of the best, which is of upmost national security importance, and is important for the maintenance and improvement of the machinery which has given us so much material prosperity.
2. We need to accept that not everyone is able to handle the complexity of the world we have created and educate those who are not in that first highly selective pool of people how to be good citizens, participate in complex systems in a way that’s beneficial for all parties despite the complexity, achieve high status, and create a compact that actually rewards them for being good citizens regardless of intellectual ability. There is a very toxic aspect in the upper echelons of modern society where those not able to handle the insane complexity and competitiveness of technocracy are essentially lied to by most of our educational system to continue schooling and training indefinitely, or they are ousted from the training environment and treated like livestock. Many people then end up clinging on to large bureaucratic systems for meaning and survival, which becomes further and further out of sync with real societal needs. This is a much harder problem to solve than the first given modern organizational complexity, but people will not accept the solution to the first problem (which is inevitably unbalanced and discriminatory against those less able) unless the system as a whole is explicitly rewarding and accepting everyone for participation and giving them achievable pathways to high status.
I see that second problem as THE problem of the 21st century. If that problem is not solved, or if it is forcibly “solved” arrogantly and stupidly, I worry the world will be plunged into a level of dysfunction that makes the past 3 years look like nirvana. If that problem is solved we could find ourselves enjoying the highest levels of prosperity, meaning, belonging, and global uplift in the history of mankind in the decades to come.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would be interesting to structure a software startup as a coop. I think the pushback would be the founders and early employees willing to share equally with later employees/members.
There was one in my hometown, in a different industry. One thing I heard about it was that decision making was extremely painful.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was one in my hometown, in a different industry. One thing I heard about it was that decision making was extremely painful.
It wouldn't surprise me if there weren't similarities to volunteer organizations, decision making in which--as you say--can be very painful.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#46> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…
capital flows through trust networks
have i missed anything?
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#47Was Lisp actually ever risen at JPL, or was it just used on these handful of projects by a single or small group of developers? > At one point an attempt was made to port one part of the system (the planner) to C++. This attempt had to be abandoned after a year. Based on this experience I think it's safe to say that if not for Lisp the Remote Agent would have failed. I like Lisp and am certainly no fan of the complex…
I'm sure there's many examples I haven't heard of that are legitimate (using lisp for almost all of a specific domain at scale and having a mature codebase, tho that's arguable) but I've yet to see any example that has meat on it's bones, besides the company that did crash bandicoot on the PS1.
And even that one I'm unsure of as I feel it's been mythologized with how often it's pointed to.
I don't blame them though, I root for lisp very much. I'd rather see this articles like this posted and picked apart for validity vs not hearing about them at all.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#48This is blogspam, the original is still hosted here by the author himself: https://flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
I know that's a really tall order, but I'd love some kind of tool that tries to do something close to this, even if it's just a listing of other sites that have the same text with a button click.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I love co-ops. I wish there were more of them. I'd love to work for one if the pay was acceptable.
Would be interesting to structure a software startup as a coop. I think the pushback would be the founders and early employees willing to share equally with later employees/members.
Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)
#50I used to be a fan of programmer productivity and having the best tools to express ideas in. In our case, this is not about LISP, but about being able to write 40 lines of SQL in half an hour to solve things that other people reach for 1000 lines of backend language to do. But also trying hard to identify opportunities to simplify and delete code instead of adding another layer of complexity on top every time somethi…