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The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

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Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#31
I used to be a fan of programmer productivity and having the best tools to express ideas in. In our case, this is not about LISP, but about being able to write 40 lines of SQL in half an hour to solve things that other people reach for 1000 lines of backend language to do. But also trying hard to identify opportunities to simplify and delete code instead of adding another layer of complexity on top every time something doesn't add up.

But I've started to wonder. In some ways I feel "our" area in the company has been a victim of our own success: By doing things in smart/efficient ways, the tasks we've done has become seen as simple, we didn't need to recruit as much, and eventually because of the low number of people occupied on the task in the organization it is seen as easier or less important and we are more vulnerable to churn than larger teams.

I've seen simpler problems getting solved in (what I think is) very inefficient ways and I used to scoff at that. But now I think what they gain is a large robust team, which can handle both churn and have more weight politically in the organization. Solving something inefficiently simply offers a way to have more people do the same task, for redundancy.

In a sense, once an organization hits a certain size it seems that efficiency in a programming language is an anti-feature. You WANT a larger set of programmers to be happily working on something just to have a larger team around the code and redundancy in people. If a programming language / environment allows you to be too efficient, then too few people get the job done and you become vulnerable.

At least, that's the best explanation I have at what's really going on in the industry.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#32

I've read this article some years ago and always wanted to ask: besides size, what were the arguments against Lisp in JPL? Author's position is biased, as he recognizes, then I'm curious about the other side in this story.

One of the footnotes mentions that multilanguage integration was causing some headaches, and (the author's bias showing through) that is blamed by the author on the IPC server being crashy because it was C, not Lisp.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#33
post #31

I used to be a fan of programmer productivity and having the best tools to express ideas in. In our case, this is not about LISP, but about being able to write 40 lines of SQL in half an hour to solve things that other people reach for 1000 lines of backend language to do. But also trying hard to identify opportunities to simplify and delete code instead of adding another layer of complexity on top every time somethi…

This sounds like the standard "but are they busy?" concern hitting. Folks claim they want folks that are working "smarter" and not "harder." Completely ignoring that that is, itself, hard.

I agree with your general concern. I hate it when, not only do I know that I am in fact lazy, but that is not why I have done less in this case. I genuinely believe the smaller solution is far far preferable. All too often "don't do it" is by far the better option for what so much internal tooling does.

To that end, I push back against you wanting a less efficient language. I think efficiency is itself a trap. Redundancy and general pacing is a good thing. Languages that try and forego that are not doing themselves any favors.

But, and this is fully to your point, if you don't have the spots in your organization that are fully tolerant to mistakes and bad ideas, than you don't have room in your organization to grow. And if you don't have room to grow as an organization, than you probably don't have room to grow the software, either.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#34
Was Lisp actually ever risen at JPL, or was it just used on these handful of projects by a single or small group of developers?

> At one point an attempt was made to port one part of the system (the planner) to C++. This attempt had to be abandoned after a year. Based on this experience I think it's safe to say that if not for Lisp the Remote Agent would have failed.

I like Lisp and am certainly no fan of the complexity of C++, and barely know it because of such, but is this the conclusion that should be taken? Porting an existing and in-work application from one language to another, with the two languages being rather wildly different, seems like trouble from the start. It doesn't address, however, the idea of starting from the beginning with another language. The conclusion quoted seems to skip over the possibility of using another language from the start.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#35
post #27
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic premise of MBA programs is arguably to create interchangeable managers. One size fits all is less efficient at both the managerial and employee levels, the advantage is largely risk minimization.

Yup Except that it is only local or small risk minimization; the catastrophic existential risks end up maximized to the point of becoming inevitable. With companies, the MBAs happily optimize away anything that isn't immediate revenue. So manufacturing gets offshored, along with all the deep knowledge of how to make things. R&D gets shrunk and minimized because it is a quarterly expense with returns not immediately s…

This is a great comment. Thank you! I’ve got nothing to add. It’s very sad, but that’s just how it is.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#36

> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…

Are you familiar with the concept of co-ops? A lot of businesses are run by their workers or their members/consumers. They can hire or fire people to work as management as they see fit. It's not very unlike the board of investors of a business hiring or firing management, except instead of a board of investors you have co-op members.

Yeah, I love co-ops. I wish there were more of them. I'd love to work for one if the pay was acceptable.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#37
post #25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phillips head screws are pretty standard in the US, but pretty much any other non-slot screw head is technically superior (including at least two other plus shaped drivers I'm aware of). Most woodworkers I've known prefer a square shaped driver. Unless the costs of the screw significantly impact your margins, Phillips screws suck.

>Phillips screws suck. I felt this way through my entire engineering life until I bought a sailboat. Everything on marine stuff tends to be flat-head or similar design -- engaging a flat driver into a slot in a bumpy/roll-y ocean is hell . The self-centering engagement aspect of a cross-socket style drive is absolutely fantastic after a long day of trying to tighten flat-slot fastened tube-clamps and the like at sea…

I wonder if the prevalence of flat head screws has something to do with ease of machinability. I imagine there's a lot of custom or obscure fasteners on boats. A flat head bolt or screw has the benefit of being able to be made with not much more than a lathe.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#38

> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…

Someone's got to do the plugging. Won't work as an entry level job.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with the concept of co-ops? A lot of businesses are run by their workers or their members/consumers. They can hire or fire people to work as management as they see fit. It's not very unlike the board of investors of a business hiring or firing management, except instead of a board of investors you have co-op members.

Yeah, I love co-ops. I wish there were more of them. I'd love to work for one if the pay was acceptable.

Would be interesting to structure a software startup as a coop.

I think the pushback would be the founders and early employees willing to share equally with later employees/members.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I love co-ops. I wish there were more of them. I'd love to work for one if the pay was acceptable.

Would be interesting to structure a software startup as a coop. I think the pushback would be the founders and early employees willing to share equally with later employees/members.

There was one in my hometown, in a different industry. One thing I heard about it was that decision making was extremely painful.
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