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The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

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Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#22

> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…

Are you familiar with the concept of co-ops? A lot of businesses are run by their workers or their members/consumers. They can hire or fire people to work as management as they see fit.

It's not very unlike the board of investors of a business hiring or firing management, except instead of a board of investors you have co-op members.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#23

> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…

Because capitalism incentivizes maximizing capital flow to the owner of the organization. Making labor interchangeable and delivering a minimally viable end product are both ways of minimizing capital that could otherwise be made to flow to the owner of the organization.

If you want to create a management style that optimizes for quality of product or optimizes for management styles that reflect the needs of labor, instead of a process that optimizes for minimizing labor, then you need to change the incentivization plan accordingly.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#24

> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…

Same. The question I’ve been finding more and more interesting over the years is “how do you tell when you have an interchangeable component/what are the implicit dependencies holding things together”.

You run into an abstracted version of that in software all the time, but it’s way more ubiquitous that just a software or business problem. There’s always a limit to interchangeability/some kind of assumed context. That rabbit hole is incredibly deep. I don’t think I’ve ever run into anything comparable. If you pull on that thread long enough you end up in deep esoteric discussions about perception and philosophy and the history of categories/evolution. And whether or not all of that rabbit hole I ended up in is an unrelated tangent or not requires dealing with the same exact problem (which is whether or not the boundaries you’ve placed around something are legitimate/fit your definition, or if they belong somewhere else/you’re missing very important hidden context).

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#25
post #19

I’m intrigued by the distinction between best practice and standard practice. Isn’t it standard because it’s the best? I can understand that non-standard practices might be best in niche situations, but this sounds like a discussion of “traditions are solutions to problems so old we’ve forgotten what they were”.

Phillips head screws are pretty standard in the US, but pretty much any other non-slot screw head is technically superior (including at least two other plus shaped drivers I'm aware of). Most woodworkers I've known prefer a square shaped driver. Unless the costs of the screw significantly impact your margins, Phillips screws suck.

>Phillips screws suck.

I felt this way through my entire engineering life until I bought a sailboat.

Everything on marine stuff tends to be flat-head or similar design -- engaging a flat driver into a slot in a bumpy/roll-y ocean is hell. The self-centering engagement aspect of a cross-socket style drive is absolutely fantastic after a long day of trying to tighten flat-slot fastened tube-clamps and the like at sea during calm conditions, let alone during weather.

That said -- yes, phillips head sucks, they round out and won't handle any decent amount of torque over repeated sessions without deformation. Robertson (square)/allen/torx kind of suck at sea, because they lack any form of self-centering without using special taper drivers.

In a perfect world I think that I would like to use pozi-driv fasteners and drivers everywhere, but the reality is that there are so many types of specialty hardware in use in the marine-world that it would be difficult -- if not impossible -- to switch it all entirely over.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#26
post #25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phillips head screws are pretty standard in the US, but pretty much any other non-slot screw head is technically superior (including at least two other plus shaped drivers I'm aware of). Most woodworkers I've known prefer a square shaped driver. Unless the costs of the screw significantly impact your margins, Phillips screws suck.

>Phillips screws suck. I felt this way through my entire engineering life until I bought a sailboat. Everything on marine stuff tends to be flat-head or similar design -- engaging a flat driver into a slot in a bumpy/roll-y ocean is hell . The self-centering engagement aspect of a cross-socket style drive is absolutely fantastic after a long day of trying to tighten flat-slot fastened tube-clamps and the like at sea…

Yes, they are better than flathead screws, which are the second (or maybe third after a combination philips/flathead[1]) most common screw I encounter in daily use.

1: Which I just learned last month they make special screwdrivers for! https://www.amazon.com/Combo-Driver-4-Inch-Klein-Tools/dp/B0...

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#27
post #11

> The management world has tried to develop software engineering processes that allow people to be plugged into them like interchangeable components. I've wondered about this a lot lately. It's not limited to software engineering only, you see it in other creative/human domains as well. Media production. Teaching. So on. But it's made me wonder, why doesn't the equation ever invert: "The world has tried to develop _m…

The basic premise of MBA programs is arguably to create interchangeable managers. One size fits all is less efficient at both the managerial and employee levels, the advantage is largely risk minimization.

Yup

Except that it is only local or small risk minimization; the catastrophic existential risks end up maximized to the point of becoming inevitable.

With companies, the MBAs happily optimize away anything that isn't immediate revenue. So manufacturing gets offshored, along with all the deep knowledge of how to make things. R&D gets shrunk and minimized because it is a quarterly expense with returns not immediately specified. They kill or sell off all the "dogs" of products and try to milk the "cash cows". This makes the numbers look great until things change and the "cash cows" need updating for a new market environment. But the company now has no idea how to do it because they have no seasoned and up to date product development, no R&D technology development, and no manufacturing know-how. So, it goes into a death spiral if it hasn't already been disrupted.

On the societal level, MBAs justified the western world outsourcing all the manufacturing because it was "fungible" and cheaper to do it offshore, made more profits this quarter. Meanwhile, all that know-how was stolen by China, who isn't interested in quarterly profits, but in global hegemony, and now has both economic and strategic chokeholds on the western democracies (everything from corners on lithium and solar panel markets, to spies in western corporations, to backdoors in key commercial and likely military microchips). The entire strategic advantage of the west was sold out for a few dozen quarters of increased profits. This will go down as a colossal strategic blunder of historic proportions.

All thanks to trying to standardize management.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#28
post #4

This is blogspam, the original is still hosted here by the author himself: https://flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html

Ok, so the update from Aug 2022 is not by Ron? geez.

Changed from https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/lisp.html now. Thanks!

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#29
post #17

My mentor worked at JPL - he was a BS, MS, PhD from MIT - he got out of there so quick (i believe less than 2 years). He said the pace of work was so slow, he didn't feel like anything got done in his entire time there.

Depends on what you're working on and on if you're defining "getting stuff done" on a macro or micro scale. For large flagship missions, 2 years is nothing. The scale of work and level of verification required by these projects is massive and takes time. You've only got one shot to get things right with billions of dollars on the line, don't rush it.

High-assurance isn't really the culprit. It's more of a funding issue. If long NASA programs could save part of the first year's budget to use the second year, things would go a lot faster.

You might get hired into an overstaffed team and not do that much for a year until it's crunch time and then you're underfunded so it takes an extra year. Arguably you spent three years to achieve one year's worth of accomplishments.

Re: The rise and fall of Lisp at the Jet Propulsion Lab (2002)

#30
post #25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phillips head screws are pretty standard in the US, but pretty much any other non-slot screw head is technically superior (including at least two other plus shaped drivers I'm aware of). Most woodworkers I've known prefer a square shaped driver. Unless the costs of the screw significantly impact your margins, Phillips screws suck.

>Phillips screws suck. I felt this way through my entire engineering life until I bought a sailboat. Everything on marine stuff tends to be flat-head or similar design -- engaging a flat driver into a slot in a bumpy/roll-y ocean is hell . The self-centering engagement aspect of a cross-socket style drive is absolutely fantastic after a long day of trying to tighten flat-slot fastened tube-clamps and the like at sea…

> flat-slot fastened tube-clamps

I am unsure exactly what you are referencing with “tube-clamps”. If you mean hoop-clamps or hose-clamps, then those usually have “self-cantering” hexagonal heads as well as the slot: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stainless+steel+hose+clamp&iar=ima...

But I can definitely think of places with slot-heads on deck of the yachts I have been on, which would be a bitch in swell. And stripping a thread would also suck!

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