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The Disappearance of the Ashtray

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Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#431

Post by PaulRobinson »

chongli wrote: post #247
PaulRobinson wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an ex-smoker, I'd ask you to consider it as about the most addictive thing going. Think of something you really, really like doing. Something that calms or pleases you every time you do it. Like, playing a game, or reading a book, or eating your favourite food. Now imagine someone telling you that you don't have to do that, it's just a choice. Imagine being deprived of it and being guilt-tripped into it. Sure you…

My father smoked for many years before quitting. I have two roommates that are smokers. The difference between him and them is that he wanted to quit, so he did. They continue to smoke because they do not want to quit. It’s as simple as that.

You have to want to change to be able to change. This isn't news.

But even then, different people have different responses to addiction and some people find it easier than others.

Willpower is not evenly distributed across the population. Resilience to uncomfortable situations is a muscle that has to be trained, and you need that before you can tackle addiction, and keep working on it.

I'm pleased for your father, but your roommates are not the same person, and comparing them as if they are entirely equivalent is unfair to them AND your father. Your father had experience, willpower and resilience that your roommates do not yet have, and that's not their fault.

When/if you encounter addiction writ large - drugs, alcohol, gambling - the stuff that gets real crazy real quick, you might see the problem and the difficulties associated it, and the nuance of an addiction that gets at somebody that does not have immediate consequences but delayed consequences. You might then get why your father did very well, and your roommates are relatively blameless in this regard.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#432

Post by Dalewyn »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #421
pigsty wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, unless as a child you had abusive parents who forced you to smoke, it’s absolutely a choice. There are people who can’t stop doing stupid stuff for attention (like breaking electronics for YouTube views or whatever), and we don’t blame “idiots” commenting online for their habits. There are people who refuse to eat vegetables and only eat junk food and we also don’t blame “idiots.” Yes. It’s addictive. But per…

Do you say this to all addicts? There are countless reasons people make bad choices: peer pressure, to calm anxiety, dealing with depression, and yeah, sometimes, abusive parents. But you are refusing them their status of victim of circumstance and saying "well, sucks to be you", and taking the high ground. Good for you, it must be great up there never having made a bad choice. The moment somebody makes a poor choice…

Adults are responsible for themselves, and smoking is absolutely a choice regardless addiction status.

If you can't control yourself and be responsible, you shouldn't be in the military let alone manning a submarine.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#433

Post by moffkalast »

defrost wrote: post #217
TylerE wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a morbid note, they made so many Purple Hearts for the planned invasion of Japan in 1945 that they haven’t needed to make more since.

Not exactly true, more were made in 1976, in 2000, and in 2008. What is true is they still have a fair few left over ready to issue from WWII .. they misplaced 125,000 from that time and rediscovered them in that enormous Raiders of the Lost Ark warehouse. See: https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/176762

They belong in a museum!

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#434

Post by 314 »

pigsty wrote: post #255
PaulRobinson wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an ex-smoker, I'd ask you to consider it as about the most addictive thing going. Think of something you really, really like doing. Something that calms or pleases you every time you do it. Like, playing a game, or reading a book, or eating your favourite food. Now imagine someone telling you that you don't have to do that, it's just a choice. Imagine being deprived of it and being guilt-tripped into it. Sure you…

I mean, unless as a child you had abusive parents who forced you to smoke, it’s absolutely a choice. There are people who can’t stop doing stupid stuff for attention (like breaking electronics for YouTube views or whatever), and we don’t blame “idiots” commenting online for their habits. There are people who refuse to eat vegetables and only eat junk food and we also don’t blame “idiots.” Yes. It’s addictive. But per…

> Countless people never smoked. Countless people stopped. Some people act like quitting smoking is some insufferable thing that others will never understand. Everyone has bad stuff they do that’s just as hard to quit.

While smoking is a choice, not all choices are the same. Not all choices are weighted by a chemical addiction, comparing quitting smoking to bad food or exercise choices trivialises it in an unnecessary way.

Breaking an addiction is difficult, but smoking is one of the hardest addictions to break. I would imagine that heroin is more difficult to quit, but I can't think of any other addictions that are as difficult to break as nicotine.

If you have no experience of this (and it seems that you do not so apologies if you do) then a simple way to understand how difficult it is quit is not to think of it as a single choice to make. Imagine making the most difficult choice of your life, against everything that your body and brain is telling you - something that requires an extraordinary act of will and self-faith. The reward for making the correct choice is not an end to the matter - it will push it to one side for about 15-20 seconds. Then another wave of chemical addiction will wash over you, everything in your life will pale into insignificance and you will be faced with exactly the same choice again. This will repeat without end, asleep or awake, until you break the first part of the addiction. It will only take two or three weeks of these constant life changing choices, and you must make the correct choice every single time, but it will feel like an eternity.

If you make it through that initial period then it gets easier, but that sequence of life-changing choices won't really end for about six months, although you will gain more confidence that you are making the right choice through that time.

Several years later you will reach a point where you no longer have to choose and you have genuinely become a non-smoker. It is a long difficult road, but it is possible and many people do it. Believing that is almost impossible while you are still addicted, and find that believe that you personally are mentally strong enough to endure that cycle of choice and longing is the most difficult step of all.

So, yes it is a choice - but that does not make it the same as other things that are a choice. Some choices are more difficult than others, and to put all choices into a single category and assume they are the same is to under-estimate the range of difficulty that exists across different choices.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#435

Post by afroisalreadyin »

evenw wrote: post #90

The SAGE consoles not only had an ashtray, but also an integrated lighter. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SAGE_console.jpeg

That is rather incredible. "Let us put a tray for an intensely hot object on this security-crucial hardware, because people are so addicted to it".

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#436

Post by PaulRobinson »

chongli wrote: post #284
jdkoeck wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so the reason there are thousands of books and methods about quitting smoking isn’t because it’s hard, it’s because people don’t really want to. Or maybe they’re stupid? Got it.

I didn’t say it was easy, or that people who smoke are stupid, I said it was a choice. If you choose to quit smoking then you’ll succeed.

There are literally millions of people who choose to quit smoking and fail, every single day.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#437

Post by leokennis »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #5

The plummeting rates of smoking in the US is one of the rare areas where this country really shines when it comes to social welfare. Even many European states that have what I'd consider much more progressive social welfare systems have smoking rates that are appalling, often 3x or more the US rates.

In The Netherlands it's embarrassing. They basically had to beg supermarkets to stop selling cigarettes and then give them a years long transition period.

It could be very easy. Ban the sales of tobacco to everyone born after "YYYY", make cigarettes cost €50 per pack, make smoking when not allowed a €100 fine, deposit all tax from tobacco sales into a national program where people get free "exercise credits" to be redeemed at fitness studios etc.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#438

Post by moffkalast »

skupig wrote: post #134
ramphastidae wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marijuana is less dangerous to lungs than tobacco. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/ > Tobacco has dramatic negative consequences for those who smoke it. In addition to its high addiction potential [1], tobacco is causally associated with over 400,000 deaths yearly in the United States, and has a significant negative effect on health in general [2]. More specifically, over 140,000 lung-related dea…

The effect is also stronger, lasts longer, and is less addictive than coffee. The average user isn't smoking a joint per hour like it was tobacco. Sure, it's definitely not healthy, but everyone does something that trades longevity for fun. :-)

Still, I'm not sure why someone would bother with the risks of smoking when edibles exist.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#439

Post by leokennis »

lelanthran wrote: post #181
brazed_blotch wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, being constantly ostracised from public spaces isn’t great either… something I find infuriating when I travel abroad. If there were at least a few smoking bars where you don’t have to go out into the cold to smoke I think that would be nice.

> On the other hand, being constantly ostracised from public spaces isn’t great either… something I find infuriating when I travel abroad. If there were at least a few smoking bars where you don’t have to go out into the cold to smoke I think that would be nice. I'm a smoker, and I absolutely don't want smoking allowed in public indoor places, and some outdoor public places as well. I don't smoke indoors even in my o…

> Too many times I have had people go out of their way to inhale my second hand smoke, and then complain about it.

Too many times I have had people go out of their way to walk in front of my 3 ton truck driving 100 mph in a pedestrian zone to almost get hit, and then complain about it.

Re: The Disappearance of the Ashtray

#440

Post by Dalewyn »

tsimionescu wrote: post #386
chrisco255 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a basic courtesy to stay home if you are sick. Airborne diseases cannot be prevented by mask wearing between sips of your courtesy peanuts and soda. And plenty is lost about a society that focuses more about preventing illness than just staying generally healthy. Smiling is good for you, engaging with your fellow humans, with full facial expressions available for communication and connection, are absolutely…

So you expect people who have planned an expensive vacation and booked a flight to cancel everything if they get the sniffles? Should they also self-isolate and avoid grocery shopping, all public transport etc for 5-10 days after their first sore throat? And note, I'm saying this as someone who has just renounced a week-long vacation and two non-refundable flights because I tested positive for Covid, even though I ba…

Yes, actually. If you know you've got the flu or some other mild-but-still-serious illness, you don't go outside your home unless it's absolutely necessary (eg: going to the hospital, buying essential groceries).

And before you say "I don't care if I pass my flu around.": Stay home /for your own sake/. What the fuck do you think is going to happen if your mild illness takes a turn for the worst right when you're overseas? I hope you have good traveller's insurance, or otherwise sufficient savings to afford medical and emergency care out of pocket.

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