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Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

theatlanticwire.com

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Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#81

Post by jisaacstone »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

Not hardly communist any more, actually.

The other option would not be to 'starve', most likely, since there is an abundance of low-skill, low-pay work to be found. But don't be fooled into thinking the government (especially the local government) or the companies care about the workers.

No one will be doing them any favors.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#82

Post by philwelch »

mc32 wrote: post #80
vacri wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing that it wasn't just factory workers that created all that wealth - current developed nations benefitted massively from the immense amounts of wealth they pulled from the 'new world', an option that is no longer available these days.

During the age of conquest Spain was able to extract natural resources (such as minerals), but for the most part, Britain, Portugal, France benefitted from the trade with their colonists --not trade with new world peoples. I think it could be argued that this reliance on natural resources by Spain, contrasted with commerce favored by Britain, for example, resulted in the slow decline of imperial power by Spain. I thi…

There isn't much of a distinction between exploiting natural resources and settling colonists so the colonists could exploit natural resources for you. The colonial American south exported tobacco and cotton, for instance.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#83

Post by matthewcieplak »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

"Periodically pulling stunts like this" is certainly a grim view of an acceptable collective bargaining platform. I can tell you're not trying to defend FxC but to get an objective overview, but I don't think this is so complicated that it needs a philosophical explanation. The company is clearly at a gigantic advantage, operating in a market with very low labor liquidity, bolstered by huge contracts extranational corporations like Apple. This means that they aren't really responsible to local customers, so there's really no motive for them to act responsibly, unless Apple or another large tech client decides to enforce fair labor conditions.

If Apple's customers decided to boycott them based on these practices it would have the same effect. Of course, Chinese state media makes it harder to get the published journalism necessary to instigate consumer revolt. That's why articles like this are very valuable.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#84

Post by daenz »

nitrogen wrote: post #78
daenz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see the transition shot already: a SnorriCam (one of those cool mounted cameras) following the smartphone down the assembly line, past the family, in dingy blue factory lighting. It loads into a box, onto a truck, into a shipping container, over the ocean, unloaded, and finally in a cheery white and shiny Apple store. The teenager convincing his parents to purchase the phone says "but everyone else my age has o…

in dingy blue factory lighting. All the photos I've seen of the factories in question are as well-lit as American factories. The working conditions are poor, but they're far better than what early American and British workers endured during the industrial revolution. Also, such a film would only be complete if it documented the nerve and joint damage caused to American vinyl and PVC manufacturers not given proper ven…

> Also, such a film would only be complete if

That's pretty funny, because last time I checked, films were considered art and used to tell whatever story the writers and directors want to tell. Good luck finding a "complete" film to your standards.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#85

Post by d0mine »

juiceandjuice wrote: post #5
sosuke wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Foxconn just doesn't respond? Would anything actually happen to them if the people mass suicided?

Would you buy a bloodPhone?

There is already Blood in the Mobile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_in_the_Mobile

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#86

Post by maratd »

ugh wrote: post #71
maratd wrote: post #22

One of the hallmark properties of a market economy is that you have choice. You don't like your compensation? You quit. The truth is that everyone at the factory is there because they want to be. Because it beats being back on the farm. But still, Foxconn created the problem. When Western media freaked out over the suicides, Foxconn got scared. They started making their employees sign non-suicide agreements. What? Th…

No. It’s exploitation, pure and simple. It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation. Industrialization – over the course of more than one century – led to a more prosperous, just and healthier society in many western nations. That doesn’t negate the millions of workers who were exploited along the way.

> It’s exploitation, pure and simple.

One party can't exploit another without the threat or use of force. If no threat of force is present, then the relationship is voluntary and both parties should accept responsibility for participating in it.

> It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation.

If a man one thousand years from the future came to visit you, he may very well consider your standard of living absolutely deplorable. But that wouldn't mean you are being exploited. Since no force is being used. See above.

> I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation.

Why would I have empathy for either party in a business transaction? What? This is business. It is as much business for Foxconn as it is for their employees. Let them hash it out.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#87

Post by [deleted] »

ugh wrote: post #71
maratd wrote: post #22

One of the hallmark properties of a market economy is that you have choice. You don't like your compensation? You quit. The truth is that everyone at the factory is there because they want to be. Because it beats being back on the farm. But still, Foxconn created the problem. When Western media freaked out over the suicides, Foxconn got scared. They started making their employees sign non-suicide agreements. What? Th…

No. It’s exploitation, pure and simple. It might be better than the alternatives but it’s still exploitation. I simply cannot comprehend how you cannot have empathy in such a situation. Industrialization – over the course of more than one century – led to a more prosperous, just and healthier society in many western nations. That doesn’t negate the millions of workers who were exploited along the way.

[deleted]

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#88

Post by Tycho »

jhuni wrote: post #68
pjkundert wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: you are using one of the most ruthless [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade ] command economies in the world as an example of the ills of Capitalism?

China has been blatantly capitalist since the economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping, similar to the USSR after the 1965 economic reform. Don't fool yourself - China is capitalist. It is capitalist regardless of what its leadership claims or the extent to which it uses state mechanisms or market mechanisms.

It lacks the individual/property rights that underpin true capitalism. I think we should invent a new word for it, like 'marketism' or something.

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#89

Post by mrlase »

jisaacstone wrote: post #81
ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Lots of conflicting thoughts here. It seems pretty clear that the workers think that their working conditions are unjust. Further, they apparently would be OK with those conditions if they got more money. That suggests they don't consider them inhumane, (not justified regardless of pay) rather they are economically unjust. The truth of whether or not they are economically unjust (in a market driven economy, which Chi…

Not hardly communist any more, actually. The other option would not be to 'starve', most likely, since there is an abundance of low-skill, low-pay work to be found. But don't be fooled into thinking the government (especially the local government) or the companies care about the workers. No one will be doing them any favors.

Yeah, China hasn't really been 'communist' since the days of Mao.

To expand on what you said, here's an article from 12 years ago (that's getting incredibly weird to say) about China opening up to private enterprise: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/591841.stm. I think most would agree that China is now considered a "socialist market economy [with Chinese characteristics]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy)

I think it's really interesting to observe the progression of China's economy over the last 70 years, from the "Great Leap Forward" (and the subsequent Cultural Revolution) up until now, they've had quite some twists and turns, but their underlying ideological basis I find intriguing: they derive their policy from the 'Scientific development concept' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Development_Concept).

The Brookings Institute also has a good look at China's most recent economic plan if you're interested in looking over it: http://www.brookings.edu/events/2011/1101_china_economic_pol...

Re: Foxconn workers threatened mass suicide for their working conditions

#90

Post by louislouis »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #79
louislouis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not just talking about China. It really doesn't matter which country the factories are in. The poor will always get exploited. Be it child labour in India or Indonesia, or closing of GM Flint Michigan. Exploitation of the poor is at the root of capitalism if you think about it from a basic level. It's all about making profit, and for that you need cheap labour provided by the poor, globalization provides an abund…

I'm confused. If a company pays people money to build stuff for them (as in India or Indonesia), you criticize them as exploiting the poor. And if they stop paying people money to build stuff for them (as in Flint Michigan), you also criticize them for exploiting the poor?

Pay is certainly a good thing. But perhaps the companies need a heavy touch of social responsibility as part of their manifesto. Unfortunately social responsibility does not fly in the name of profit. That is what I mean by exploitation.
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